A question aimed at dan ranks, but anyone can answer

[TSDTexan]

in your style, do you have higher level techniques, or even techniques that are not shown explicitly in your forms?

in tang so do, there are a fair number of kicks that are not in the hyungs. but are critieria for higher dan ranks.

yes, some MA are technique driven, and have no forms. So.. bjj isn't really in the scope of this question.

 

[WingChunChick]

in your style, do you have higher level techniques, or even techniques that are not shown explicitly in your forms?

in tang so do, there are a fair number of kicks that are not in the hyungs. but are critieria for higher dan ranks.

In my experiance many schools use "higher level techniques" as a way to keep students around. While in reality for a technique to be effective under stress it needs to be relatively simple.

In reality the only thing separating pros from early students should be practice and understanding of the basics.

 

[WingChunChick]

To answer your question, no. We don't teach techniques on level

 

[TSDTexan]

In my experiance many schools use "higher level techniques" as a way to keep students around. While in reality for a technique to be effective under stress it needs to be relatively simple.

In reality the only thing separating pros from early students should be practice and understanding of the basics.

Thank for the post, but its off point. =)
while i agree there is a lot of truth in what you have said... i am trying to get a feel from insiders about how many MAs have no techniques outside of their forms vs those that do.

 

[skribs]

I do KKW Taekwondo. While we use the older Palgwe forms (and actually a version of them only used by our school and one other school, to my knowledge), the Taegeuks suffer this problem as well: there are barely any kicks. We have front kicks in most of our forms. Side kicks come in our blue and red belt forms, as well as a couple crescent kicks at red belt.

Never in our forms do we do roundhouse kicks, back kicks, hook kicks, or pretty much any kicks at all. In the kicking art. While it's been a while since I looked at the Taegeuks, I think you can do all 8 of them and do a total of maybe a dozen kicks. (Someone who does them can correct me). At our school, between the 5 basic Kibon forms and the 8 advanced Palgwe forms, we do:

• 44 front kicks (ok, so maybe quite a few of those)
• 8 side kicks
• 3 crescent kicks
• 1 back kick

This is all the forms needed to get your black belt. Each form has a minimum of 20 hand techniques, so aside from front kicks (which are fairly common) you have 8 side kicks, 3 crescent kicks, and a single back kick. These aren't done with the same footwork you will use for TKD sparring, and are not done in combination with each other.

Compare that to the drills we run, which feature:

• Different kicks, to include front kick, pushing kick, roundhouse kick, side kick, step-behind side kick, axe kick, step-behind hook kick, spinning hook kick, and tornado kick
• Different footwork, including step-through kicks, sliding kicks, jumping kicks, switch-kicks, double kicks, and repeated kicks
• Advanced combinations such as multiple kicks without placing your foot down

Now, part of this is the nature of Taekwondo as it has evolved away from Shotokan and TSD towards being an olympic sport based on kicks, without rejecting the hand techniques in the forms. We do train some of these kicks in our self-defense scenarios, (the fancier kicks are used a lot less, front kicks and roundhouse kicks a lot more, and often after grabbing your attacker's arm). But again, you don't see them in the forms at all.

I'm kind of curious what a Taekwondo form would look like if it sought to include all of the kicks we teach. But as it stands, those don't really show up in the poomsae.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the branch of kenpo that I trained (Tracy) a large portion of the curriculum consists of defenses against various self-defense scenarios. There are ten of them for the first promotion to yellow belt, and then 30 per belt up through 5th dan, which may have a bit more than 30, I don’t remember for certain.

Many of these techniques have numerous variations and options, depending on circumstantial possibilities.

I cannot say that these techniques get more “advanced” as you progress. Fairly complex scenarios, as well as more simple ones, exist in most of the belt rankings once you progress past the first couple of colored belts.

In my opinion, it is just more. Most of the good ones, those that make sense and are realistic and built upon good ideas are found by around blue or green belt. After that, it’s mostly just more. Some are good, but many of them are actually pretty stupid ideas and unrealistic.

Many of the kata are built with these techniques, so they share in my same criticisms. Other kata were adopted from other outside sources, some Chinese and some Japanese. I do not find them to be an appropriate addition to the curriculum. They are out of place and do not make sense in this curriculum. Many of these are found in the Dan grades. Again, in my opinion these are not advanced. They are simply more.

 

[Buka]

I used to train TKD under Billy Blanks. There were techniques that we trained and used that I do not remember ever seeing in any forms.

Edit - or in any forms from any style that I've seen.

 

[Kababayan]

After 1st Dan In Shaolin Kempo there are new forms. The forms range from "the same moves as the lower ranks" to completely new (different animal forms, etc). The combination and self defense techniques are, for the most part, the same moves as lower ranks.

In Krav Maga there aren't any new techniques but rather different scenario training.

 

[pdg]

In ITF TKD (different to what @skribs does...) there are many things described in the books, and taught in class sometimes, that aren't in any of the patterns.

Some are variations of things contained in the patterns, others are completely different.

The patterns may contain the core of the art, but they are far from the complete blueprint.


(I'm not a dan rank holder - but I have a fair few of the training manuals, the encyclopedia and the internet - and I know how to read and like to do so )

 

[Hanzou]

Many of the TSD forms come from Shotokan karate. That's probably why you're not seeing a lot of kicks in them.

 

[TSDTexan]

Many of the TSD forms come from Shotokan karate. That's probably why you're not seeing a lot of kicks in them.

unless the tsd lineage is derived from Shudokan, and some are. But a greater percentage would be from shotokan.

 

[JR 137]

I was near 2nd dan in my former organization, so I can speak from personal experience about that one...
I wouldn’t say the material got more “advanced” from say 3rd kyu or so, but it got more complex. Many of the kata moves weren’t anything new, but the stances and angles were different enough, and they were far longer. Some movements were more “athletic.” Kanku Sho was a kata I was working on when I left (I was preparing for a tournament, and my sensei taught me a 2nd dan kata, in anticipation of that rank for the tourney). It’s got a complex spinning jump kick that lands with hands and feet on the ground, and a few unique movements compared to previous kata. Other than that, there’s nothing drastically different.

Aside from kata, the standardized drills and the like were longer and more complex too. There was far more back and forth between partners, more sweeping and joint locking, and more resistance. There wasn’t any “hold the punch out while your partner counters” and no “punch slowly so your partner can block.” There was some of that until you had it memorized, but it quickly turned into full speed and you were going to get hit if you didn’t block. We weren’t trying our best to hit each other during that stuff, but if you got hit, it was definitely on you rather than your partner.

We also got far more in depth with traditional weapons. 2nd and first kyu had bo basics and a kata or two. At 1st dan and up, it turned into sparring drills with the weapons along with more advanced kata. We didn’t free spar with them, but the prearranged sparring and the drills were pretty quick and you’d definitely feel it when you messed up.

My current organization looks to be much the same. I’ll confirm or refute that when I get to 1st dan. Im testing for 1st kyu in 2 weeks, so I’ve got a year minimum after that. Most average about 18 months or more. Once you’re ready, somehow the test dates keep you waiting a bit longer

 

[WaterGal]

I do KKW Taekwondo. While we use the older Palgwe forms (and actually a version of them only used by our school and one other school, to my knowledge), the Taegeuks suffer this problem as well: there are barely any kicks. We have front kicks in most of our forms. Side kicks come in our blue and red belt forms, as well as a couple crescent kicks at red belt.

Never in our forms do we do roundhouse kicks, back kicks, hook kicks, or pretty much any kicks at all. In the kicking art. While it's been a while since I looked at the Taegeuks, I think you can do all 8 of them and do a total of maybe a dozen kicks. (Someone who does them can correct me).

Yeah, Taegeuk 1-3 only have front kick, Taegeuk 4-5 have front kick & side kick, Taegeuk 6 you have roundhouse kick for the first time (also front kick), Taegeuk 7 has crescent kick, and Taegeuk 8 has jump front kick & front leg front kick. Koryo has side kick and front kick, Keumgang has no kicks at all. The KKW (or maybe the WTF?) put together some fancy competition forms a year or two back that have, like, 360 jump roundhouse and stuff to try to address this, but I'm not sure if they ever took off as anything but demonstration forms.

So yeah, there's lots of stuff in TKD that's not in the forms.

 

[skribs]

Yeah, Taegeuk 1-3 only have front kick, Taegeuk 4-5 have front kick & side kick, Taegeuk 6 you have roundhouse kick for the first time (also front kick), Taegeuk 7 has crescent kick, and Taegeuk 8 has jump front kick & front leg front kick. Koryo has side kick and front kick, Keumgang has no kicks at all. The KKW (or maybe the WTF?) put together some fancy competition forms a year or two back that have, like, 360 jump roundhouse and stuff to try to address this, but I'm not sure if they ever took off as anything but demonstration forms.

So yeah, there's lots of stuff in TKD that's not in the forms.

Sounds like there is more variety of kicks in the Taegeuk forms than Palgwe.

I ignored the black belt forms for a few reasons. For one, we've learned so many kicks by then that aren't covered in the 8+ forms you learn as a color belt that the point was already made. But also, because then I'd have to include our alternate versions of them (i.e. we train Koryo Hyung, which is the verbatim Kukkiwon version, but also Koryo Il Jang, which is similar for the first half, but completely different for the second half of the form). Our alternate versions include more kicks. But again, these are unique to our school (and maybe one other), and they are after black belt, where we've already learned over a dozen forms and done only a handful of kicks.

 

[Balrog]

One of the things that I like about Songahm Taekwondo is that we have a LOT more emphasis on kicking than a lot of other styles do. By the time someone gets to 1st Degree, they pretty much know all the different kicks and they have been used in the forms.

 

[Mitlov]

Two separate questions: are there techniques that aren't in your forms, and are there techniques you don't learn before you're a black belt? For me with TKD, Shotokan, and TSD, the answers are the same. Yes to the first, no to the second.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

New forms and techniques. Some of them were just...weird. Personally even when I got first dan, I made very little progress beyond because there is such a wealth of techniques pre 1st dan that I cared more about practicing that stuff then filling my head with anything new.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I practice about 50 TKD forms, and there are certainly things that aren't covered specifically in the forms. Forms are a useful teaching tool, but they're not the be-all and end-all of the system.

 

[skribs]

Two separate questions: are there techniques that aren't in your forms, and are there techniques you don't learn before you're a black belt? For me with TKD, Shotokan, and TSD, the answers are the same. Yes to the first, no to the second.

I'm a 3rd Dan and I'm still learning new stuff.

 

[Mitlov]

I'm a 3rd Dan and I'm still learning new stuff.

Are you learning how to better combine or apply basic building blocks you've learned before, or are you learning strikes or grappling techniques you have never done before?

A boxer will learn new stuff even after years of boxing, but it's new strategies and tactics, not new punches.