A little Confused...

J

Jas0n

Guest
I just got done watching the Martial arts programs on the Discovery Channel...I saw at least 2 guys supposed Master of their art...they were VERY overweight....Please if you out of shape or overweight this is not a knock on you. I am 35lbs overweight, one of my motivations for starting MA training.
I also have seen a few local schools with the head instructors who are welll....FAT...I thought a big part of MA was physical and mental wellness...Iexpected to see all a bunch of really healty in shape musculer guys. Was I making the wrong assumption?
 
Having the mental and phsical training of martial arts does not guarantee weight loss. When I was astudent of my brother-in-law, I made a comment about this big fat guy that was my senior. he could barely pick up his leg. Boy did I get a lecture.

We are all differant and some of us just can't lose weight as easily as others. Not counting all the other things that is harder for them carrying around all that weight.
 
Originally posted by akja
Having the mental and phsical training of martial arts does not guarantee weight loss. When I was astudent of my brother-in-law, I made a comment about this big fat guy that was my senior. he could barely pick up his leg. Boy did I get a lecture.

We are all differant and some of us just can't lose weight as easily as others. Not counting all the other things that is harder for them carrying around all that weight.
I understand some have issues out of there control...
How would one become a good martial artist if he cant pick up his leg?

I thought it was a core thing in MA. Now I understand seeing thos as students not in shape. as I am myself. Yet as a "master" or teacher? i dont get it?
 
Originally posted by Jas0n
I understand some have issues out of there control...
How would one become a good martial artist if he cant pick up his leg?

I thought it was a core thing in MA. Now I understand seeing thos as students not in shape. as I am myself. Yet as a "master" or teacher? i dont get it?

Depends on the art.

The arts that I study almost never kick above the waist, and rarely even above the knee.

Also, someone who trains a lot and is heavy will surprise you with how quick they can be. I'm now losing weight, but it's because I've changed my diet. I was about 100 pounds overweight (now I'm down to 30 pounds overweight) and was still able to kick at my head height and higher, but rarely did. My resting heart rate was 74 (not great, but considered average -- and at 100 pounds overweight, it's extraordinary). I was cardiologically fit and a very capable martial artist. But it was because I trained all the time.

A guy I know (I've heard he's lost a lot of weight, but I haven't seen him in a while) was huge. When I met him, he was about 6'3" and, I'd guess, at least 380 lbs. He literally waddled. Then he was asked to teach some grappling. He got in front of one of my friends and asked if my friend was ready. My friend said that he was. I didn't see the big guy move. The next thing I knew, he was on the ground behind my friend, and my friend was slamming to the ground while the big guy put an excruciatingly painful leg lock on my friend. Turned out the big guy had started in competition grappling at age 4 and done it ever since.

These are exceptions, of course. Most people who are overweight are also out of shape and can't move very well. But always remember that there are exceptions.

Mike
 
The point of a martial art is to learn an effective form of applied science to the art of combat. Fitness has nothing to do with the art. If you need to be fit to apply your art... well then success you have in combat really isn't about the science of the art is it. Might as well just join a gym and try to get faster and stronger than everyone else.

Frankly I'm FAT, pretty dosh garn fat, and my martial skill has increased dramatically because of it. I've had to refine my skill rather than rely on my attributes, and I know I'm better for it (martially).

In real life the need for defense can come at the most inopportune times. When your drunk, tired, injured, driving etc. A truly viable martial art should be cabable of functioning in all these arenas... arenas where the issue of fitness tends to be moot, burt the issue of skill isn't.

Of course being fit is nice too... though as mentioned above fit and fat don't necesarrily have a correlation.


Arthur
 
Also, there's this to consider:

Every martial art that I've ever been exposed to has had efficiency and economy of motion as a core tenet.

The more efficient and economical your motions are, the less fitness training you'll get from performing them.

Of course, anything can be done aerobically, but a good workout isn't necessarily an indicator of good martial arts training.

At higher levels, in fact, it may be an indicator that you were doing something wrong and working too hard :)

Mike
 
Now, I'm no master...but I do hold my own against a younger, fitter crowd...

I'm overweight by 30 pounds...arthritic...and balding...
but, I am a senior in our system...

I used to run 7 or 10 miles three times a week and 3 miles on my off days (Army training)...now my knees are falling apart...
I wasn't overweight until I could no longer run...I kept my weight under control by running...but I can't run, anymore...

So HOW do I execute techniques? Economically...I don't waste energy or movement...

Have you ever watched a racquetball tournament?
There are some FAT b*****ds at those tournaments...they rule the court...Why? Because they don't waste energy chasing after the ball...they control the action from the center of the court...they have the other guy running after the ball...

It's sort of like that when I square off...
OK, I know this guy will attack...I know that he has only a certain number of entries based on my stance, and posture...so I'll let him move first...then I won't be there when he gets there...I only need to move an inch to pull this off...minimal movement...minimal energy expended...

Also, a well rounded abdomen does not necessarily equal a fat person...the taoist breathing exercises eventually cause a well rounded abdomen...and it can be as solid as a rock, just round.

:asian:
chufeng
 
well jas0n...let me tell you. you may not realize it yet since you just started EPAK, but it's one of the systems where you'll see a lot of the senior masters of the art are a little on the stocky side.

not trying to make fun or anything here, it's just the way it is. seeing them do there thing will take any doubt out of your mind that they are the real deal, and if you still don't believe it after you see it, you will after you feel it.

i believe it's referred to as "a little extra back-up mass."
 
My teacher used to say, "You can't drive a spike with a tack-hammer."

:D
chufeng
 
provided both people understand the mechanics of striking,I would rather take a punch from a 170 pound guy than from the same guy pluss 70 more pounds of fat.. more mass means you hit harder.. there are advantages and disadvantages of everything. but also consider the posability of injury, say someone got hurt somehow, say they can't kick because they messed up an ancle and can't balance on it.. doens't mean they don't know what they knew before.. they can still teach it all.. it's the same way with someone overweight even in an art that requires being in shape to practice (like a ring sport like western boxing or thai boxing where you are matched based on weight). So on most other arts that don't require being in shape I relay don't think being over weight affects your teaching ability.
 
I agree that "don't judge book by it's cover" in Martial Arts. I'm on the heavy side. I don't look like it to some people cause I wear baggy clothes. But I am 30 pounds over weight. Some noticed, and say I can't kick above my knee ..... that's until I "thump" them in the head during sparring :D

There's even people heavier than me that can kick some major @$$ and I wouldn't even know it till I spar them. I got my @$$ kicked many times in TSD by a BB that was like 50 pounds over weight .... Man, was she fast! I never saw her move. I just "felt" her techniques ..... THUMP!!!!! Ouch.

Same thing goes for little people. I didn't think little people could kick my @$$ ..... boy was I wrong! I think I'm more worried about the little guy! LOL

Weight has nothing to do with it. It's training, hard work, and dedication has A LOT to do with how well one can fight. ;)
 
I weigh 227 pounds and am 5' 8" tall. Uncle Sam and Army standards of fitness say that for my height and my age (34) I shouldn't weigh more than 179... In order to accomodate those folks who weigh more than others in the Army, we have body fat testing accomplished by incredibly efficient measuring tape tests... For men, they tape your neck and waist (at belly button level), apply some magic math, and voila - body fat percentage (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). According to Uncle Sam, I am 22% fat.

I am still trying to figure out where I am hiding nearly 50 pounds of fat. Nobody I know, friends, family and coworkers alike, think I look fat. Big, yes, intimidating, sometimes, but fat? Hardly.

When I "fight," I favor going straight to my opponent's real estate and evicting him from it. I will allow several strikes to land, if for no other reason than to gain distance and inspire the other guy to give up without too much trouble (I can take a few really good shots, but not too many...). Once I am in there, I can make use of my added bulk...

Chufeng is usually the one I get matched up against... For an old fart (I'm gonna pay for that) he is pretty quick, but then it is timing, not speed, that makes that happen...

As for the added back up mass, I will say that my light taps are usually heavier and harder than some other, skinnier folks, hard shots.

It's good to be BIG. My nickname on our Yiliquan Yahoo! site is Yili Fatboy... And I don't mind a bit!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I weigh 227 pounds and am 5' 8" tall. Uncle Sam and Army standards of fitness say that for my height and my age (34) I shouldn't weigh more than 179... In order to accomodate those folks who weigh more than others in the Army, we have body fat testing accomplished by incredibly efficient measuring tape tests... For men, they tape your neck and waist (at belly button level), apply some magic math, and voila - body fat percentage (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). According to Uncle Sam, I am 22% fat.

I am still trying to figure out where I am hiding nearly 50 pounds of fat. Nobody I know, friends, family and coworkers alike, think I look fat. Big, yes, intimidating, sometimes, but fat? Hardly.

When I "fight," I favor going straight to my opponent's real estate and evicting him from it. I will allow several strikes to land, if for no other reason than to gain distance and inspire the other guy to give up without too much trouble (I can take a few really good shots, but not too many...). Once I am in there, I can make use of my added bulk...

Chufeng is usually the one I get matched up against... For an old fart (I'm gonna pay for that) he is pretty quick, but then it is timing, not speed, that makes that happen...

As for the added back up mass, I will say that my light taps are usually heavier and harder than some other, skinnier folks, hard shots.

It's good to be BIG. My nickname on our Yiliquan Yahoo! site is Yili Fatboy... And I don't mind a bit!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I think uncle sam is slightly off. I know you've spent some time in the military. But you are 1 inch taller than me and I way 160.

I am lean but with a 19 puund increase, I definately would not be fat. Buy at your weight, I understand where your you're coming from. My buddy is the same height as me and through working out he gained up to 205 and he was "hog stautus."

My point is the 20 pounds is not much but 67 pounds is a lot and that "tap," I would agree with!
 
Originally posted by Jas0n
Was I making the wrong assumption?

I'd say so. personally, I'm a little over weight and could stand to lose twenty pounds. my current instructor now (who is on this board as well) is six inches shorter than I am and is overweight, but for him, it's in his favor because it's very misleading. anyone who would see him would probably say "No f******* way." then you spar him, or he demonstrates a technique on you, and your eyes are open and your *** on the ground. the man can get his foot over my head by at least two inches.

Again, Mr. C., who is also on the board, is a big fella, and he's at least five inches taller than I am. but damn, the man can move. I had the priviledge of being his..."assistant" at the seminar we had, and I could not see his hands move, but I sure as hell felt the impacts.
 
Originally posted by akja
I think uncle sam is slightly off. I know you've spent some time in the military. But you are 1 inch taller than me and I way 160.

I am lean but with a 19 puund increase, I definately would not be fat. Buy at your weight, I understand where your you're coming from. My buddy is the same height as me and through working out he gained up to 205 and he was "hog stautus."

My point is the 20 pounds is not much but 67 pounds is a lot and that "tap," I would agree with!

Well, for 5'8" the ideal weight, according to BMI charts, is around 155 lbs. This, of course, doesn't factor in bone density or muscle mass.

Just like the tape measure test that was mentioned. In fact, I've read that the only way to get an accurate body fat ratio is dissection :)

I think the Army's standards are based on BMI and you have to be within a certain range of your "ideal."

I'm also 5'8" and think that anything under about 180 would be unhealthy for me because I've got large and very dense bones and good muscle mass. To give an idea of my bone structure, I'm 5'8" and wear size 12 ring on my ring finger, size 11 on my pinky, and I wear size 13 shoes (not sure how all this translates for you folks across the pond).

Consequently, when I say that I'm currently 30 pounds overweight, I'm going from the 180 that I personally think would be my "ideal" weight. According to the BMI, I'm 55 pounds overweight and, according to the same measuring tape mentioned above, I'm 27% fat. And yet, my slowly emerging abs would indicate that that's not the case.

The BMI charts (and other things like it) don't take muscle mass or bone density into consideration. ~155 is the ideal weight for a man who's 5'8" with average bone density and muscle mass. If you've got small bones or large bones, or are more or less muscular than "average" then that "ideal" weight has to be modified. Everyone is aware of this, but they haven't found a more accurate way to gauge it yet (that I'm aware of, anyway).

Mike
 
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I weigh 227 pounds and am 5' 8" tall. Uncle Sam and Army standards of fitness say that for my height and my age (34) I shouldn't weigh more than 179... In order to accomodate those folks who weigh more than others in the Army, we have body fat testing accomplished by incredibly efficient measuring tape tests... For men, they tape your neck and waist (at belly button level), apply some magic math, and voila - body fat percentage (yeah, right :rolleyes: ). According to Uncle Sam, I am 22% fat.

I am still trying to figure out where I am hiding nearly 50 pounds of fat. Nobody I know, friends, family and coworkers alike, think I look fat. Big, yes, intimidating, sometimes, but fat? Hardly.

Funny .. back in '86 when I was at MEPS, they weighed me, then
put me in this big box, with a hole for my neck with just my head
sticking out of the box. They then filled the box with water, which
took what seemed like forever, and weighed all of that. Somehow
they got a fat percentage out of that.
 
I have a 44 inch chest, a 36 inch waist and an 18 inch neck.

I am not sure what size my legs are, though I have trouble finding jeans that fit both my waist and thighs...

I am happy where I am. Uncle Sam is satisfied with his outdated system that I am within his standards of body fat percentage (though I think his standards are imaginary and based on garbage math and unrealistic expectations).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:
 
Originally posted by pesilat
Well, for 5'8" the ideal weight, according to BMI charts, is around 155 lbs. This, of course, doesn't factor in bone density or muscle mass.

Just like the tape measure test that was mentioned. In fact, I've read that the only way to get an accurate body fat ratio is dissection :)

I think the Army's standards are based on BMI and you have to be within a certain range of your "ideal."

I'm also 5'8" and think that anything under about 180 would be unhealthy for me because I've got large and very dense bones and good muscle mass. To give an idea of my bone structure, I'm 5'8" and wear size 12 ring on my ring finger, size 11 on my pinky, and I wear size 13 shoes (not sure how all this translates for you folks across the pond).

Consequently, when I say that I'm currently 30 pounds overweight, I'm going from the 180 that I personally think would be my "ideal" weight. According to the BMI, I'm 55 pounds overweight and, according to the same measuring tape mentioned above, I'm 27% fat. And yet, my slowly emerging abs would indicate that that's not the case.

The BMI charts (and other things like it) don't take muscle mass or bone density into consideration. ~155 is the ideal weight for a man who's 5'8" with average bone density and muscle mass. If you've got small bones or large bones, or are more or less muscular than "average" then that "ideal" weight has to be modified. Everyone is aware of this, but they haven't found a more accurate way to gauge it yet (that I'm aware of, anyway).

Mike

I would be happy if I could gain to 180. I've lifted for a very long time and what I've learned is I could do things now from lifting less that I couldn't do not that long ago.

If I did gain it, I would need a good strecthing program to keep from being so tight.
 
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I have a 44 inch chest, a 36 inch waist and an 18 inch neck.

I am not sure what size my legs are, though I have trouble finding jeans that fit both my waist and thighs...

I am happy where I am. Uncle Sam is satisfied with his outdated system that I am within his standards of body fat percentage (though I think his standards are imaginary and based on garbage math and unrealistic expectations).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

I would also think that uncle sam wants their boys to be healthy and have made decisions scientifically.
 
Mastery of an art has nothing to do with weight to height ratio or body fat percentages.
Would it be better if we were all physical specimins? Maybe....
But one way or the other, the martial arts (removing all the high-falootin sophistry) is about being prepared to survive a physical confrontation... no matter what condition or state you are in when you do it.
Don't underestimate a "BIG" fella, or gall for that matter.
They may move like a freight train, but don't be on the tracks when the train comes through.
Your Brother
John
 

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