$80,000.00 per song judgement

celtic_crippler

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Actually no I am not surprised. I know what the laws are. I know what the penalties are for the laws that I disagree with.

Really?

Have you ever peeled an orange in a hotel room?

Ever been involved with bathing two babies in the same tub at the same time?

Ever fried up some gravy?

Ever had a pet fish with an 'aggressive' name like "Biter" or "Killer" or even "Sugar Ray"?

Ever ridden a bicycle without the "appropriate fashion accessories"?

Ever wear cowboy boots in public? Well, if you don't own at least two cows you're a criminal!

Ever set a mouse trap? Well, I hope you had a hunting license.

These are but a few "silly" laws in your state, California.

Now, tell me the penalties since you claim to be so knowledgable. :rolleyes: Or do you agree with all these laws?

Oh..by the way...I'm curious as to whether you may be guilty of any of breaking any of these laws. LOL


I spend time to figure it out rather then walk around like an ignorant yokel waiting to claim I didn't know when confronted for breaking a law.
Ignorance never was and never will be a valid excuse.

Well huh-yuck-yuck, bless my biscuits and call me fer dinner. So I take it you wear bicycle shorts to match your Schwin when you ride? :uhohh:

I just find it comical that so many people have double standards, or how moral standards have dropped.
You can justify breaking a law anyway you wish. It does not make it right, it just makes it easier for you to live with yourself.

Like the last time you broke the speed limit and didn't promptly head to the police station to turn yourself in. :rules:

I get what people are saying... trust me I would love to not have to buy another cd ever again. I guess this whole argument reminds me of martial arts in general.
It seems so many people think they can defend themselves because they call what they do martial arts... without actually accepting the fact that they are nowhere close to being able to defend themselves... they just justify what they do in their own minds to make it ok.
Same thing here... Justify it all you want, its still wrong. You are still stealing from someone else. I don't understand how some people are trying to make it sound like its okay and should not be a crime.
If you can admit that then fine do what you want. I do not care. I won't report you, I won't share in it, but I don't personally care enough to get involved past this discussion. Hell I do not even disagree that the music should be cheaper, or done differently, but that is not my choice unless its my music that I made, recorded, and chose to distribute... of course if it was mine I would have to pay people to take it LOL

It's not the "breaking of a law" that most of us are criticizing. It is in part the law itself, and in part the fact that they singled out one person who is doing pretty much what millions of other people are doing and not getting penalized for. Now that's a double standard.


I also think that the thought of fining the lady actual loses is really naive, or at the least ridiculous. If thats the case people would steal anything and everything they could if the penalty was just to charge you what was actually lost in value if you are caught.... know what I mean? There has to be a substantial penalty to prevent it from happening.

I'll remember that when we hear about you getting hungry at the hotel that sponsors the next martial art camp you go to and you get caught peeling an orange in one of the rooms. :hammer:
 

LuckyKBoxer

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Really?

Like the last time you broke the speed limit and didn't promptly head to the police station to turn yourself in. :rules:



It's not the "breaking of a law" that most of us are criticizing. It is in part the law itself, and in part the fact that they singled out one person who is doing pretty much what millions of other people are doing and not getting penalized for. Now that's a double standard.




I'll remember that when we hear about you getting hungry at the hotel that sponsors the next martial art camp you go to and you get caught peeling an orange in one of the rooms. :hammer:


Obviously you don't get my point.
Obviously you want to try to be clever instead of realistic.
Obviously you think you are pretty smart...
I really could care less about any of those things, and am even less impressed by them... slightly amused though so kudos for you on that /shrug
I know what the laws are here in my area. I know what I can get in trouble for and what I can't get in trouble for.
I never said I never break a law. I simply make sure I know what the possible penalty is if I get caught, and If I get caught I don't try to make some BS excuse for it.
I take accountability for my actions, I do what I feel compelled to do, except when the possibility of harsh punishment is too severe to risk.
I never said don't do the crime.
I just said if you do, then you should be prepared for the consequences, and those consequences should be severe if the law being broken is a problem.... with billions of dollars lost this is a problem.
Naming my pet goldfish something like the "Eater of Celts" is a victimless crime....unless I tell other people the name of the fish, or I actually feed it Celts :(
taking something that is copyrighted and belongs to someone else and is required to be paid for is taking money from someone that is not rightfully yours.
Steal it all you want, but you can't claim its not a crime, and when you get caught you are responsible for paying the penalty.
Stupid criminals pay more then smart criminals.... /shrug sounds like a darwinian thing there to me.
I also have to say they are not letting millions of other people get away with it, many other people simply paid a penalty assessed to them and agreed not to do it again. They are going after these people, most of them are just smart and agree to take care of it out of court and as quickly as possible...because they understand they stole and pay the penalty for it.
Everyone has to choose what values they live by.
You either steal things or you don't
It's really quite simple.
I don't think someone who feels fine about stealing music would have any problem taking a 20 dollar bill from the front seat of a parked car that has the windows down and nobody in sight.
Probably given the right circumstances those same people would not need much prodding to steal even more if they felt it was easy and they could get away with it...
And people wonder why I do not let any random acquaintence over to my house.
I think I made the point I wanted to make. People are either going to get it, or they are going to continue to make excuses to validate their stealing and not wanting to get punished if they are caught doing it.
I just find it really eye opening how easy it is for people to justify stealing, when they do not have to put a face to it...or at least a sympathetic face.
 

jks9199

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I'm not defending outright theft of material, nor am I defending selling pirated material of any sort... but music (and books and articles and movies) are becoming a more complex area.

It's definitely a larceny if I go into a store, and steal the CD. But what if I record the song as it's broadcast on the radio? Is that a theft? I'm probably not going to buy the album for the one song. I might buy a single (especially today with I-tunes and other similar places services) -- but I might not.

Now... I buy the CD and a make a copy for my buddy. He wouldn't buy the album; let's take that as a given. Is that a theft? I didn't sell it -- I gave it to him. I'm not presenting it to the public as "get this album free from me..." What if I simply lent him the CD -- and he copied it on his own, without my knowledge. Who OWNED that CD in the first place?

That's the problem with trying to equate real physical property and intellectual property. It's not easy to sort some of these things out.

But... even without those issues, how is this verdict reasonable? Did this one woman really cost the record industry to the tune of millions? Even allowing for a significant punishment component... does the verdict seem reasonable?

This is why I and others (including a respectable number of artists) feel that the paradigm of music and other creative arts sales needs to change. It needs to respect the effort and work of the creative process -- but also recognize the realities of the current world where it is nearly impossible to prevent or control unauthorized copying.
 

Bob Hubbard

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Let me put this another way.
Like most photographers, I charge for my work. Lets say you hire me to shoot your portrait for your school. Lets say I charge you $100 for that service, and at the end hand you an 8x10 print. You don't have the right (unless I give it to you) to head down to Walgreens and have then crank out a few copies.

Under the same terms as this case, you could owe me $2 million bucks.

Maybe I'm arguing the wrong side here.....
 
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MA-Caver

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I own maybe 2,000+ dvds.
almost all of them are originals, and the ones that aren't are slowly being replaced by legit copies.
I've been doing the same thing... now that DVD's are getting cheaper or you can find them in the $5.00 bin at Walmart for an "older" movie. Little by little this poor man is buying the original films where he can find and AFFORD them.
 

Cryozombie

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It's definitely a larceny if I go into a store, and steal the CD. But what if I record the song as it's broadcast on the radio? Is that a theft? I'm probably not going to buy the album for the one song. I might buy a single (especially today with I-tunes and other similar places services) -- but I might not.

Right... Here is where this becomes a HUGE grey area...

If I rent a copy of "Ernest goes to the Moon" from Comcast "On Demand" on Cable and Record it on my Set-top DVD recorder... I'm in the clear.

If I rent a copy of "Ernest goes to the Moon" from Netflix and Record it on my PC... I'm a theif.

WTF? Can someone explain the difference to me, beyond saying "Well, its the law you have to follow it?"

The same applies to The Radio or even Streaming radio and music. I can record the songs off of the Radio, Broadcast, Satalite or Streaming and Its ok... but the minute I download them instead I'm breaking the law.

Personally, I find the idea of "Theft of Intellectual property" kind of crazy in the first place. If you are a baker and I steal your loaf of bread, I'm a thief. If I copy your recipie for bread and make it for myself, am I still a theif?

One thing is for sure... if my movie ever sees production and is released on DVD, the minute I see it on Pirate Bay, I'm throwing a party, because I will know that somehow, someone somewhere liked my film enough to share it. Cuz, if Wolverine is any indication, its clear that Piracy doesnt hurt Profits like they want us to believe.
 

Cryozombie

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You either steal things or you don't
It's really quite simple.

Ah, but see... Code isnt a thing. I can make infinate copies of code, at basically no cost whatsoever. (Perhaps the cost of the electricity or storage space) If you have code, and I copy your code, now we both have the code... what THING was stolen? If Bob and Caver then copy my code, now there are 4 copies of the code, what have you had taken from you?

Thats quite different than taking a 20.00 bill. If I take your 20 you no longer have a 20. There really is a difference.
 

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Tensei85

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Wow! thats a huge amount. I won't get into a debate if its wrong or right, we all have our own code of conduct that we live by. Its just a matter or not if it agrees with the federal laws that are in place.
 

AceHBK

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I knew something was wrong when I walked in a big CD chain store and saw that they sold blank CD's!!!!

Blockbuster sells blank DVD's!!!

Come on now, despite what they say there is a whole lot of nodding and winking going on. I mean come one now, you can walk in Blockbuster and rent 3 newly released movies and buy blank DVD's at the SAME TIME!!!
 

LuckyKBoxer

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I knew something was wrong when I walked in a big CD chain store and saw that they sold blank CD's!!!!

Blockbuster sells blank DVD's!!!

Come on now, despite what they say there is a whole lot of nodding and winking going on. I mean come one now, you can walk in Blockbuster and rent 3 newly released movies and buy blank DVD's at the SAME TIME!!!

Umm blockbuster is a business, they are in the business of making money, meaning they stock what they can sell to their core audience.
Once again it is not illegal to copy your own music or movies that you paid for, for your own use. It is illegal to copy it without purchasing it for your own use.

Home Depot Sells Rope and Chainsaws, you think they are nod and wink implied for serial killers to come get their equipment to break the law?

Seriously come on now.
 

LuckyKBoxer

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I wrote these a decade+ ago. Misspellings and typos aside, I still feel this way.
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Software Pirates are cool 1995[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Re: Software Etc. inflates game prices (i.e. MW2)? 1995[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]More comments on the piracy topic 1995[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Another Piracy Opinion 1995[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Re: holier-than-thou-I'd-never-pirate tight-wads 1996[/FONT]

All seem like pretty logical, honest, opinions on the subject. i can agree 100% with everything I read... I have a bad habit of skimming at times, but I am pretty sure I read everything there.
 

Empty Hands

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Nobody ever came after me as a kid when I recorded songs off the radio onto a tape. Nobody ever came after me for sharing a physical copy of a CD with a friend. It's utterly ridiculous.

They didn't come after you because they couldn't, not that they didn't want to. The recording industry put up a huge fuss each time a new recordable medium came out. They put up a fuss for audio and VHS/Beta tapes, CD's and probably more I'm not aware of. They just couldn't do anything practical to bust people unless they got greedy and stupid. The main difference with file sharing now is that all the transactions can be tracked. If giving a CD to your friend could be tracked, they would have tried to bust you for that too.
 

celtic_crippler

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Obviously you don't get my point.

Maybe not. Just going by what you posted. RTFM

Obviously you want to try to be clever instead of realistic.

Those laws I posted are "real". LOL Just pointing out the silliness. Call me "Captain Obvious"... or is that too clever? LOL :lol:

Obviously you think you are pretty smart...

...well...maybe. I did graduate from college with a 3.35 GPA ...Does that qualify? :2xbird:

I really could care less about any of those things, and am even less impressed by them... slightly amused though so kudos for you on that /shrug

Why? Based on your previous post you claimed to have knowledge of all the laws where you lived, as well as the penalties for them. Or were you just being "clever." LOL :bs1:

I know what the laws are here in my area. I know what I can get in trouble for and what I can't get in trouble for.

Perhaps you weren't being clever! BTW, are you gonna fill the rest of us in on the penalties for breaking some of those great laws you have out there in sunny Cali? I'm dying to know the penalty for not properly accessorizing with your bicycle. :lfao:


I never said I never break a law. I simply make sure I know what the possible penalty is if I get caught, and If I get caught I don't try to make some BS excuse for it.

So...what happens if you get caught setting a mouse-trap without a hunting license? Quick! Don't google it either 'cause you claimed that "...ignorance is no excuse..."
:readrules

I take accountability for my actions, I do what I feel compelled to do, except when the possibility of harsh punishment is too severe to risk.

I gathered from your previous post aboutthat it was a matter of morality and not a fear of repercussion that guided you. As you can see, it's obvious that I'm not always right. :uhoh:


I never said don't do the crime.
I just said if you do, then you should be prepared for the consequences, and those consequences should be severe if the law being broken is a problem.... with billions of dollars lost this is a problem.

You sure about that?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jun/05/ben-goldacre-bad-science-music-downloads

and...
"The decline in music sales -- they fell by 15% from 1997 to 2007 -- is the focus of much discussion," the paper states. "However, adding in concerts alone shows the industry has grown by 5% over this period. If we also consider the sale of iPods as a revenue stream, the industry is now 66% larger than in 1997."


more here from Hardvard Business School..you know..the really smart folks.. http://www.informationweek.com/news/personal_tech/ipod/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218000206

Naming my pet goldfish something like the "Eater of Celts" is a victimless crime....unless I tell other people the name of the fish, or I actually feed it Celts :(

What happened to all your fist-pounding about "You can justify breaking a law anyway you wish. It does not make it right, it just makes it easier for you to live with yourself." ????

Had a change of heart? :p

taking something that is copyrighted and belongs to someone else and is required to be paid for is taking money from someone that is not rightfully yours.
Steal it all you want, but you can't claim its not a crime, and when you get caught you are responsible for paying the penalty.

...if it were only that simple in regards to "intelectual property."

Stupid criminals pay more then smart criminals.... /shrug sounds like a darwinian thing there to me.

Stupid criminals pay more "than" smart criminals? I didn't know they had separate penalties for the dumb ones. LOL Is that like claiming insanity as a defense? Can you claim stupidity? :lfao:

I also have to say they are not letting millions of other people get away with it, many other people simply paid a penalty assessed to them and agreed not to do it again. They are going after these people, most of them are just smart and agree to take care of it out of court and as quickly as possible...because they understand they stole and pay the penalty for it.

Could you please cite your resources on that? Thanks! :)

Everyone has to choose what values they live by.
You either steal things or you don't
It's really quite simple.

Is it? Define "things". Do they include ideas? So, if you steal my idea you should be fined and/or get jail time? What if you steal one of my "moves"? Man...if that's the case, they should be locking up a lot of folks for stealing my stuff! Nobody should be able to execute rear punch the way I do or else they have to pay me! :eek:

I don't think someone who feels fine about stealing music would have any problem taking a 20 dollar bill from the front seat of a parked car that has the windows down and nobody in sight.
Probably given the right circumstances those same people would not need much prodding to steal even more if they felt it was easy and they could get away with it...

And if you swat a fly and kill it, you're just as likely to become a serial killer too! Uh-huh...that's right!

How could I have ever doubted your logic? :idunno:

And people wonder why I do not let any random acquaintence over to my house.

I didn't. :kiss:

I think I made the point I wanted to make. People are either going to get it, or they are going to continue to make excuses to validate their stealing and not wanting to get punished if they are caught doing it.
I just find it really eye opening how easy it is for people to justify stealing, when they do not have to put a face to it...or at least a sympathetic face.

Yeah...a sympathetic face like this one:
 

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Cryozombie

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Once again it is not illegal to copy your own music or movies that you paid for, for your own use. It is illegal to copy it without purchasing it for your own use.

I thought you knew and understood the laws?

It IS CURRENTLY Illegal under the DMCA to buy a movie, and make a copy for personal use. CD's too. They (RIAA) claim (however I dont know what the court rulings on this are currently) that you cant buy a CD and rip it to MP3 for personal use either.

And again, even if we assume you are correct... (which you are not) your statement that It is illegal to copy it without purchasing it for your own use is also invalid becuase if you rent it from Pay-per-veiw services you ARE allowed to record a copy. Hmm.
 

Empty Hands

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It IS CURRENTLY Illegal under the DMCA to buy a movie, and make a copy for personal use. CD's too. They (RIAA) claim (however I dont know what the court rulings on this are currently) that you cant buy a CD and rip it to MP3 for personal use either.

A clear violation of Fair Use, even though the bastards have bought out enough politicians and judges to make it stick.
 

LuckyKBoxer

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I thought you knew and understood the laws?

It IS CURRENTLY Illegal under the DMCA to buy a movie, and make a copy for personal use. CD's too. They (RIAA) claim (however I dont know what the court rulings on this are currently) that you cant buy a CD and rip it to MP3 for personal use either.

And again, even if we assume you are correct... (which you are not) your statement that It is illegal to copy it without purchasing it for your own use is also invalid becuase if you rent it from Pay-per-veiw services you ARE allowed to record a copy. Hmm.

The RIAA does not make law. I also think you should recheck the revisions of the DMCA. There is no law against buying a CD and ripping it to MP3 format for personal use.
Most of the fair use reasonings being applied to copying movies are being argued on a timeshifting basis.... which is dubious at best. There is also no law against recording a movie you purchased to a different format, or a back up copy. The laws against are for sharing those copies with others.
 

LuckyKBoxer

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I gathered from your previous post aboutthat it was a matter of morality and not a fear of repercussion that guided you. As you can see, it's obvious that I'm not always right.



What happened to all your fist-pounding about "You can justify breaking a law anyway you wish. It does not make it right, it just makes it easier for you to live with yourself." ????

Had a change of heart?



Stupid criminals pay more "than" smart criminals? I didn't know they had separate penalties for the dumb ones. LOL Is that like claiming insanity as a defense? Can you claim stupidity?


Could you please cite your resources on that? Thanks!


And if you swat a fly and kill it, you're just as likely to become a serial killer too! Uh-huh...that's right!

How could I have ever doubted your logic?
First of it is a matter of morality, I see nothing wrong with speeding, but the cost of the ticket, and the other possible penalties prevent me from driving 140 MPH

I have had no change of heart, I stand by it... people seem to be justifying stealing something that belongs to someone else. Instead of just saying... "yes I steal music, I could care less, its not like they dont make more then enough money anyways, and I have no interest in buying it when I can get it for free with no effort."
At least then I can respect your decision...when you try to argue that its not stealing is when I question your ability to understand right and wrong.

My comment about stupid and smart criminals paying different amounts was sarcastic.... much like the majority of your post..... the point is the smart criminals acknowledged they stole, and paid fines, like the majority have done... the dumb criminals like this lady is delusional and thinks she did nothing wrong so decided to fight it, and lost big time and now wants to get off somehow.... thats just stupid... dumb criminal..../shrug

my resources? Did you even bother to read the full story on the link provided at the beginning of this story? Interesting.

Also who said anything about the slippery slope argument? I never said stealing music would make y ou steal anything else... I simply said I bet that one who steals music would have no problem stealing money... not that it leads to it, its just pretty close to the same thing.

I have no idea how you could have doubted my logic you claim to be smart, with y our high GPA and everything :p
 

Cryozombie

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There is also no law against recording a movie you purchased to a different format, or a back up copy. The laws against are for sharing those copies with others.

Wrong. With very limited exceptions providing cetain exemptions the section on Anti Circumvention makes it illegal. There is no current exemption in the Anti Circumvention law of the DMCA that allows for the creation of Fair Use Backups. The DMCA Nerfed the Fair Use laws you are referring to, because you have to bypass the Copy protection in place in order to make your copy, it is a violation of the law. Period.

The current administratively-created exemptions, issued in November 2006, are:
  • Audiovisual works included in the educational library of a college or university’s film or media studies department, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of making compilations of portions of those works for educational use in the classroom by media studies or film professors. (A new exemption in 2006.)
  • Computer programs and video games distributed in formats that have become obsolete and that require the original media or hardware as a condition of access, when circumvention is accomplished for the purpose of preservation or archival reproduction of published digital works by a library or archive. A format shall be considered obsolete if the machine or system necessary to render perceptible a work stored in that format is no longer manufactured or is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (A renewed exemption, first approved in 2003.)
  • Computer programs protected by dongles that prevent access due to malfunction or damage and which are obsolete. A dongle shall be considered obsolete if it is no longer manufactured or if a replacement or repair is no longer reasonably available in the commercial marketplace. (Revised from a similar exemption approved in 2003.)
  • Literary works distributed in e-book format when all existing e-book editions of the work (including digital text editions made available by authorized entities) contain access controls that prevent the enabling either of the book’s read-aloud function or of screen readers that render the text into a specialized format. (Revised from a similar exemption approved in 2003.)
  • Computer programs in the form of firmware that enable wireless telephone handsets to connect to a wireless telephone communication network, when circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of lawfully connecting to a wireless telephone communication network. (A new exemption in 2006.)
  • Sound recordings, and audiovisual works associated with those sound recordings, distributed in compact disc format and protected by technological protection measures that control access to lawfully purchased works and create or exploit security flaws or vulnerabilities that compromise the security of personal computers, when circumvention is accomplished solely for the purpose of good faith testing, investigating, or correcting such security flaws or vulnerabilities. (A new exemption created in 2006, after a faulty copy protection system installed on Sony's compact discs had caused technical problems for many users.)

Those revisions expire every 3 years and are the ones currently in place. Where does it provide for an exemption for personal backups?
 

LuckyKBoxer

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Those revisions expire every 3 years and are the ones currently in place. Where does it provide for an exemption for personal backups?

Umm it makes breaking the encryption illegal, it does not make copying the encryption over to the new dvd along with all of the files on the dvd illegal.
Of course the studios are actively opposing this, but as far as I know its not been deemed illegal at this point.
The DMCA contradicted other personal use laws already in existence. There is software available that copies all files on a dvd including the encryption without breaking the encryption and makes a second secure disk. This is not illegal, it is being challenged, but it has not been rules on, unless I missed something in the last two weeks or so...
 
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