8 yr. old charged with premeditated murder of father.

[MA-Caver]

Shocking and very sad.

Small Town Stunned After 8-Yr.-Old Boy Charged With Premeditated Murder

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_28981.aspx
Monday November 10, 2008
CityNews.ca Staff
As the federal Conservatives prepare to make changes to the laws surrounding young offenders - including lowering the age of responsibility to just 14 - authorities in the small town of St. Johns, Arizona, are facing their own dilemma: how to prosecute an 8-year-old boy accused of premeditated murder.
The unbelievable story emerged last Wednesday, after a youngster went next door and told a neighbour he thought his father was dead. When police in the town about 275 kilometres northeast of Phoenix arrived, they found two men lying inside a home, shot to death.
One of them was 29-year-old Vincent Romero, the father of the accused. The other was a boarder and co-worker, 39-year-old Timothy Romans. Both had been gunned down with a .22-calibre rifle.
Cops immediately focused their attention on the boy, who was taken to police headquarters for questioning. Authorities allege he not only confessed to the terrible crime but admitted he'd carefully planned it, although they have yet to release a possible motive.
Detectives are looking into the possibility he may have been abused but nothing is known for sure.
"I'm not accusing anybody of anything at this point," notes St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick. "But we're certainly going to look at the abuse part of this. He's 8 years old. He just doesn't decide one day that he's going to shoot his father and shoot his father's friend for no reason. Something led up to this."
His dad had recently taught the boy how to use a rifle to make sure he 'wasn't afraid of guns.'

More on this story...

Slain Dad Had Taught Son, 8, To Use Guns

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_28967.aspx
Sunday November 9, 2008
Felicia Fonseca, The Associated Press
A man who police believe was shot and killed by his 8-year-old son had consulted a Roman Catholic priest about whether the boy should handle guns and had taught him how to use a rifle, the clergyman said Saturday.
The father, Vincent Romero, 29, was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns, said the Very Rev. John Paul Sauter of St. Johns Catholic Church. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
Romero taught his son how to use a rifle to kill prairie dogs, Sauter said. Police say the boy used a .22-caliber rifle Wednesday to kill his father and another man, Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos.
The priest did not say how he advised the couple but said Saturday that the boy "was just too young."
"That child, I don't think he knows what he did, and it was brutal," Sauter said.
The boy, who faces two counts of premeditated murder, did not act on the spur of the moment, St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said. Police are looking into whether he might have been abused.

Police have said they want to try this boy as an adult but given his age that would be impossible.
Premeditated murder requires planning and forethought so there's no heat of the moment here. Yet I don't see how they can think an 8 yr. old is incapable of planning it. There are all sorts of sources available to a kid to get ideas on "how-to-do-it". Main thing is that the boy should be given consideration that he wasn't fully aware of the consequences and what they would mean to him when he was caught. Knowing right and wrong is one thing, knowing and understanding/appreciating the consequences of a right/wrong action is something else.

One wonders if they could still call this defense? Self defense. as they suspect the boy was abused and thus did the only thing that came into his mind on best how to stop it.
Yes, he could've reported it but again a child's mind... "who would believe me??" That he shot/killed another man along with his father indicates something there. Predators will use psychological abuse as well as physical and sexual abuse (if it turns out to be the case). Warning their victims that "no-one is going to believe you" and making it a mantra of sorts so it minimizes the possibility of the victim revealing the crime. So, quite like an adult, he takes matters into his own hands.
Sad that he had only THIS method as his way out. Seems that running away wasn't an option. Even if it were anger/fear/hatred are powerful motivators for killing... even for a child.

 

[MJS]

My first thought is to say lock this kid up somewhere. He is dangerous, could possibly do it again, and should get some help. On the other hand, anytime something like this happens, people always bring up the past of the person in question. Were they abused? Were they living a bad home life? While that may play a part, I don't feel that should be what determines whether or not the person is really a nut or they just snapped because of the abuse.

 

[MA-Caver]

My first thought is to say lock this kid up somewhere. He is dangerous, could possibly do it again, and should get some help. On the other hand, anytime something like this happens, people always bring up the past of the person in question. Were they abused? Were they living a bad home life? While that may play a part, I don't feel that should be what determines whether or not the person is really a nut or they just snapped because of the abuse.

Well yeah, but this is a child we're talking about here... a CHILD not a teenager not a young adult but a child... He's still at an age where he can be reached and straightened out. He's not Michael Myers; cold, dispassionate. He's scared and probably hurting deep down inside for what he's done. Maybe I'm giving him more credit than I should because don't have all the facts in the case but my heart still goes out to him because of his age and the tragedy that took his innocence to DO this deed.
He does need to be placed in custody so to be aware that he is being punished for murder but in a place that will continue to nuture him and make him into a decent human being. The stain of murder won't ever go away but the capacity to do it can. For a child this young... it's NEVER too late.

 

[MJS]

Well yeah, but this is a child we're talking about here... a CHILD not a teenager not a young adult but a child... He's still at an age where he can be reached and straightened out. He's not Michael Myers; cold, dispassionate. He's scared and probably hurting deep down inside for what he's done. Maybe I'm giving him more credit than I should because don't have all the facts in the case but my heart still goes out to him because of his age and the tragedy that took his innocence to DO this deed.
He does need to be placed in custody so to be aware that he is being punished for murder but in a place that will continue to nuture him and make him into a decent human being. The stain of murder won't ever go away but the capacity to do it can. For a child this young... it's NEVER too late.

Well, didn't Michael Myers start by killing his sister when he was a young boy? All kidding aside though...it would be interesting to know this childs history. Is locking him up the option? I think that is probably what most people would think upon reading something like this, but of course, trying to get to the bottom of this is important.

If he was abused, I don't think that should be an excuse for what he did. I mean, kids are picked on, on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean that they're all going to take out the people that tormented them.

 

[MA-Caver]

Well, didn't Michael Myers start by killing his sister when he was a young boy? All kidding aside though...it would be interesting to know this childs history. Is locking him up the option? I think that is probably what most people would think upon reading something like this, but of course, trying to get to the bottom of this is important.

If he was abused, I don't think that should be an excuse for what he did. I mean, kids are picked on, on a daily basis, but that doesn't mean that they're all going to take out the people that tormented them.

Agreed, and yes Myers in the story was a young boy when he killed his sister...
No, it's not an excuse for what he did... but depending upon the circumstances he probably FELT he had no choice. Anger, fear, frustration, pain, confusion, shame, guilt all those and more are overwhelming emotions for an 8 yr. old child, especially if they've been abused... but probably like the rest of many stories we post here we won't know the "rest of the story"... we can only speculate. Eventually there'll be other press releases about this story but hopefully we can catch them and post them here... to see what happened and more importantly... WHY it happened.

 

[Twin Fist]

more fuel for the anti gun nuts

 

[MJS]

Agreed, and yes Myers in the story was a young boy when he killed his sister...
No, it's not an excuse for what he did... but depending upon the circumstances he probably FELT he had no choice. Anger, fear, frustration, pain, confusion, shame, guilt all those and more are overwhelming emotions for an 8 yr. old child, especially if they've been abused... but probably like the rest of many stories we post here we won't know the "rest of the story"... we can only speculate. Eventually there'll be other press releases about this story but hopefully we can catch them and post them here... to see what happened and more importantly... WHY it happened.

I found this, and thought I'd post a small snip of it.

One of the girls said Torres used to come into her bedroom at night and touch her, according to a police report. He admitted the abuse, but told police the girl had seduced him, the report says.



The second girl, the 6-year-old, told police that she, too, was touched, but on fewer occasions. She drew an anatomically correct picture of a man for investigators, the police report says.

2 girls, one of them 10, the other 6. Both went through a tramatic event. Both went to the police. Will every young child do that? Probably not, but it goes to show that even in a tramatic thing such as the assault and whatever led up to the shooting, the fact remains that kids do and will talk.

Does someone have to be abused or live a bad home life in order to kill someone? No idea. Is life in jail best for this kid? Probably not. However, this child needs to be watched, and needs help. Will there be a chance that he could do something like this again? Don't know. I would hope that the people treating this child would do their best to make sure, because its possible that this child could repeat his actions 10 times worse.

 

[MA-Caver]

I found this, and thought I'd post a small snip of it.




2 girls, one of them 10, the other 6. Both went through a tramatic event. Both went to the police. Will every young child do that? Probably not, but it goes to show that even in a tramatic thing such as the assault and whatever led up to the shooting, the fact remains that kids do and will talk.

Does someone have to be abused or live a bad home life in order to kill someone? No idea. Is life in jail best for this kid? Probably not. However, this child needs to be watched, and needs help. Will there be a chance that he could do something like this again? Don't know. I would hope that the people treating this child would do their best to make sure, because its possible that this child could repeat his actions 10 times worse.

Something akin to Charles Whitman who murdered his wife and mother then perched atop of observation deck of the University's 32-story administrative building on August 1, 1966. at the University of Texas killing 14 people and wounding 31 others? Only difference is that Whitman had a brain tumor and was taking amphetamines.
I like to think that this kid does have a shot (pardon the pun) at getting well. He's young enough and he's aware of his actions and with help can get better. He still isn't exempt from the law and should be punished as a juvenile and receive treatment.

As far as Hector Torres Gonzalez... the guy is just absolutely full of crap. A guy 21 years old would definitely know that a 10 and 6 yr. old girl knows nothing about seduction. Whatever actions the girls did around him he misinterpreted and made it out to be what HE wanted them to be. His statements about the girls are typical of a pedophile that wishes to rationalize, minimize, justify and deny their actions and intents.
The girls reacted as they would have for themselves... one of them locked their bedroom door and indicated to their mother that they wanted to move away (escape).

The boy probably did what he thought was best. At 8 yrs. old it's difficult to imagine a lot of other (viable, realistic) possibilities.

 

[MJS]

I like to think that this kid does have a shot (pardon the pun) at getting well. He's young enough and he's aware of his actions and with help can get better. He still isn't exempt from the law and should be punished as a juvenile and receive treatment.

I agree. I do wonder though..is he really aware of the seriousness of this? I mean, parents tell their kids all the time not to do things because they'll get a boo boo, yet how many times do we see kids dart into the middle of the road to get the ball?

As far as Hector Torres Gonzalez... the guy is just absolutely full of crap. A guy 21 years old would definitely know that a 10 and 6 yr. old girl knows nothing about seduction. Whatever actions the girls did around him he misinterpreted and made it out to be what HE wanted them to be. His statements about the girls are typical of a pedophile that wishes to rationalize, minimize, justify and deny their actions and intents.
The girls reacted as they would have for themselves... one of them locked their bedroom door and indicated to their mother that they wanted to move away (escape).

IMHO, anyone who does things like that, especially to kids, deserves a slow painful punishment. Thats ok though, once he gets to jail and word leaks out, he should probably learn to sleep with one eye open, and grow another set behind his head as well.

The boy probably did what he thought was best. At 8 yrs. old it's difficult to imagine a lot of other (viable, realistic) possibilities.

Possibly.

 

[MA-Caver]

News update:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/10/national/main4587265.shtml?source=mostpop_story
"It's an incredibly unusual case," Murphy told Early Show anchor Maggie Rodriguez. "We hear about 8-year-olds accidentally shooting a gun. This was execution style. So I think it's fair to say there was something pretty awful going on behind closed doors. Police have already talked about the investigation of this child being an abuse victim. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that this child was suffering terribly horrible things behind closed doors."
St. Johns police are hoping a judge will agree to try the boy as an adult but admit it's unlikely.
"There is no physical evidence that has been analyzed to link him to anything," the boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer, told CBS News.

No evidence been analyzed... so far, but one would think that a case like this would receive special attention from investigators.

Brewer also said police questioned his client without representation from a parent or attorney and didn't advise the child of his rights.

Wonders if this isn't going to hurt the prosecutor's case or is this not going to matter?

"In Arizona you can be prosecuted in adult court at age 8. That's not true in most other states," said Murphy on The Early Show. "I think if it comes out this child was being abused, that he was desperate, this was his only way of defending himself against some terrible things there happening, you don't see a lot of public sympathy for keeping him in the juvenile justice system."
The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.
"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."

That should say something right there.

Romero was from a family of avid hunters and wanted to make sure the boy wasn't afraid of guns and knew how to handle them, Sauter said. The boy's stepmother had suggested he have a BB gun, the priest said.
It's not unusual in a state like many around the West with liberal gun laws for children to learn early how to shoot small animals in the company of their fathers. But it might have been too much for an 8-year-old, Sauter said Saturday.

I'm inclined to agree that at 8 it's too young to "own" an actual firearm. A BB/Pellet (or even airsoft) gun would've been best.
At least he wasn't allowed to go roaming around on his own (like I was at 10 yrs. old with a .410 shotgun) and had to be accompanied by his father.

Murphy said encouraging an 8-year-old having a gun was "part of the recipe for disaster.

If this is a case of actual (self) defense then I disagree with the statement.

"But I don't think that's enough of an explanation, not nearly enough. He was 8. I mean, that's barely old enough as a matter of law to be held accountable. I don't think that's going to be the only explanation."
The boy's reported confession is also being examined.
How much truth can be imparted on such a statement from a child? Rodriguez asked.
"What's interesting about 8-year-olds is that we think they fantasize, they believe in, you know, Power Rangers and things like that, but they tend to be real credible when it comes to courtroom testimony and providing information to the police for the simple reason that, at 8 years old, they're not very good liars."

True, not having the experience of life to aid in the fabrication of a lie... but they can and do tell fibs or exaggerations of events... it all depends upon how seriously the boy takes the whole event.

From this news line:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/

updated 6:35 p.m. ET, Mon., Nov. 10, 2008

ST. JOHNS, Ariz. - Hundreds of mourners packed a funeral Monday for a man allegedly shot to death by his 8-year-old son, while friends and neighbors disputed any suggestion the boy had been abused by his father.
They painted a picture of Vincent Romero as a caring father who seemed to be doing all he could to raise a polite and respectful boy.
<snip>
Relatives and friends say no abuse
Relatives and friends of Romero's in the town 170 miles (273 kilometers) northeast of Phoenix said they saw no signs of abuse by the father. Carl Hamblin, a neighbor who had once coached the father in Little League, said he often saw Romero and his son at football games or out in the yard, playing baseball.
"He appeared to be doing the right things as a dad," Hamblin said.
Neighbors Flynt and Amber Smith described the father and son as "two peas in a pod."
"They were good people, and I'd have to say good parents, and made sure (the boy) was respectful to people," Amber Smith said.

If this is true, then what happened? Problem with abuse cases that they're behind closed doors and roles are enacted out outside the home and sometimes done so well that even trained caseworkers can be fooled (not always). If the "public act" is done well enough then suspicions aren't raised and no investigation is needed.
Hopefully the details will be revealed later and the outcome as well.
Other continuing headlines:
http://www.ktla.com/content_landing...in-Double-Murder=1&blockID=129428&feedID=1080

 

[MJS]

"In Arizona you can be prosecuted in adult court at age 8. That's not true in most other states," said Murphy on The Early Show. "I think if it comes out this child was being abused, that he was desperate, this was his only way of defending himself against some terrible things there happening, you don't see a lot of public sympathy for keeping him in the juvenile justice system."
The boy had no record of complaints with Arizona Child Protective Services, said Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon.
"He had no record of any kind, not even a disciplinary record at school," he said. "He has never been in trouble before."


If this goes to a trial or the investigation really starts getting underway, I wonder if one side will focus on the underlined part. Lets look at this from a martial arts point of view. A 20yr veteran of the arts defends himself against a bad guy. During the defense, he causes some serious bodily injuries. Bad guy sues. Lawyer asks if he had any other options seeing that during the 20yrs, he most likely knew alot.

I think it would be interesting to know if this child made any attempts to talk to someone. Better yet, did anyone notice any changes in the child? I mean, if the kid was abused or having issues, he may have shown some signs.

 

[MA-Caver]

Update on the story. Charges may not be filed afterall..
http://actionnooz.com/news/?p=2312

http://www.10news.com/news/17945933/detail.html#-