1 vs. 3

[Kittan Bachika]

This is disturbing.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/l-train-attack-caught-on-video-cops-looking-for-suspects/

I am wondering, what type of drills do you all do to deal with this situation?

Btw, I want to it clear that this could have been avoided if the guy had just walked away and never said a word in the first place.
It does not justify him getting beat up.

 

[Cyriacus]

I wouldnt call it Disturbing. Noone was Maimed.

1: If You are faced with Multiple Attackers, DO NOT STAND STILL IF YOU ARE IN A GODDAMN CORNER.
2: Instead of trying to Shove Him back, He should have gotten off a good Power Shot to try and even the Odds out a bit. What He did was just dainty.
3: Anyone whos done Full Contact Fighting will tell You that if You start getting hit at repeatedly, You dont just cover up. Its a terrible Idea. It forces You to stay covered until someone gets Tired or Bored. You start wildly hitting back. And again: If He got off ONE Good Shot on the first guy, it wouldnt have been nearly as bad. It would have been 1V1, then 1V1 possibly advancing to 1V2 in a Narrow Train where He could have Lined Them Up.
4: He was too Stationary. He just didnt Defend Himself. Which is Tragic, because He was in a PERFECT Position. Assailant No. 1 was right in front of Him with His Guard down, Eyes up, and wasnt ready enough to even deflect a little shove. Assailant No. 2 was too far away to get in quickly, and Assailant No. 3 was even further out. This is a Martial Artists Dream.
5: Ok, so never mind all that. Once He was on the Ground, He shouldnt have just swatted His Feet at them. He should have waited, then when the one in Blue was in Range, Jammed His Foot as He inevitably tried to Kick, then Kicked His other Shin, forcibly Offbalancing Him, and possibly knocking Him down. Its hard to stand on One Leg whilst the Guy Kicks it.
6: He wouldnt have been Beaten whilst He was down if He did more than Flail around in the first place. As You say, things like this dont Justify it. Not everyone can be expected to look at it that way at the time. But still.
7: He got hit ALOT of Times, and could still get back up into a Crouch. He had Endurance. He was Strong. And yet He essentially did nothing. Which is a Shame.

So for Drills, Id Recommend Focus Mitt Striking.
Think about it.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

All of your points make a lot of sense. In fact the shirtless guy made his intentions known to everyone. From a legal and survival standpoint, he should have taken the offensive. And as you said he should have used the environment to his advantage making those guys fall over each other in that narrow space. It would have also helped him if he had grabbed one of the guys and used him as a shield. In a sparring session with multiple attackers, I saw one brown belt take on three green belts by using one of the green belts as a shield.

 

[Cyriacus]

All of your points make a lot of sense. In fact the shirtless guy made his intentions known to everyone. From a legal and survival standpoint, he should have taken the offensive. And as you said he should have used the environment to his advantage making those guys fall over each other in that narrow space. It would have also helped him if he had grabbed one of the guys and used him as a shield. In a sparring session with multiple attackers, I saw one brown belt take on three green belts by using one of the green belts as a shield.

You want to be a bit careful with Grabbing at Close Distance - It can work, but think of it this way: Both Your Hands are Grabbing, both Their Hands are Free, and even if They cannot Reach, They can batter Your Arms to hell and back. And Punching with Hitched Forearms isnt Fun.
You could, though, also due to the Close Distance, Grab Them, quickly move Them in the way of His Friends, and about Half Way through the Motion, Kick Him. That way Youre Moving Him and Striking Him at the same time, rather than expecting Him to Fight how You want Him to.

EDIT: Also, look at the Train! If Its Moving, well, who here has been on one of those crummy Trains? They are not very Stable. Something else He could have used, as They were Free Standing, but He has a Wall He could have Supported Himself with.

 

[MJS]

This is disturbing.

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/11/16/l-train-attack-caught-on-video-cops-looking-for-suspects/

I am wondering, what type of drills do you all do to deal with this situation?

Btw, I want to it clear that this could have been avoided if the guy had just walked away and never said a word in the first place.
It does not justify him getting beat up.

All of your points make a lot of sense. In fact the shirtless guy made his intentions known to everyone. From a legal and survival standpoint, he should have taken the offensive. And as you said he should have used the environment to his advantage making those guys fall over each other in that narrow space. It would have also helped him if he had grabbed one of the guys and used him as a shield. In a sparring session with multiple attackers, I saw one brown belt take on three green belts by using one of the green belts as a shield.

Cyriacus made some good points. The thing with multiples is that theres no sure shot solution. But my suggestions are: Pre-emptive strike. Given the odds, IMHO, use and do whatever you have to do, to survive. If it means using a weapon, then so be it. And a weapon can be anything from a book that you're holding, to a cup of hot coffee. Whatever you have to do to hopefully survive. I'd say going on the offensive first, fast and hard, is also key. Given the fact you're on a moving train, in close quarters, those are 2 other things that you have to deal with.

As for grabbing someone as a shield...that may/may not work. IMO, if you're going to do it, then make it worth your while, and punish the guy, while you're holding him. When I say punish, I mean, make him hurt. Dont just grab him, grab him, and start choking the **** out of him, gouging his eyes, whatever you can to make him feel some pain. Now, this may work, because the other 2 may see this, and haul ***. Of course, they may also want to come to the aid of their friend.

Ultimately, like I said, there is no sure shot solution. Something else to keep in mind...weapons. These guys were just using empty hands, but what if one of them or all of them pulled weapons? Now its 3/1 with a gun or knife. Despite the odds and the fact that 99% of the time, people say that its impossible to win against more than 1 (what do they say....oh yeah...well, if you can't fight one person and win, how're you going to fight 2 or more?) I'd rather do something, and possibly get away, even with some injury, than stand there and be a punching bag for a bunch of **** bags.

People like that make me sick, they really do. ****ing punks, low life pieces of ****, who have nothing better to do than pick on innocent people. Go get a ****ing job, instead of trolling the the subway. This is why I feel the way I do, when it comes to SD. Why should I have any remorse or respect for them, when they have none for me? And yeah, I know, I know...people may think thats a poor attitude, but its the truth. Im minding my own business, and some dirt bag is going to do something like that, and Im supposed to feel bad for him or worry about what I may do to him...**** him! I highly doubt those punks were walking away feeling bad for the bloody guy laying on the ground.

 

[Chris Parker]

This is actually something we spend a lot of time on, and have a range of scenario drills for. Essentially, it is an application of pre-emptive striking, based on who represents the most danger, with a strike applied to two opponents (if both are in range, that is), followed by gaining distance from the third. Just pad drills aren't enough, the tactics, distancing, and so forth are just as, if not more important.

 

[Cyriacus]

This is actually something we spend a lot of time on, and have a range of scenario drills for. Essentially, it is an application of pre-emptive striking, based on who represents the most danger, with a strike applied to two opponents (if both are in range, that is), followed by gaining distance from the third. Just pad drills aren't enough, the tactics, distancing, and so forth are just as, if not more important.

Thats more or less Training in General. Pad Drills I refer to, since they Teach You to Strike at all.
But this may just be Me keeping Drills and Tactical Lessons on different Plates.

 

[Chris Parker]

No, it's specific training for group defence. The pad drills is more generic training, honestly.

 

[Cyriacus]

No, it's specific training for group defence. The pad drills is more generic training, honestly.

I mean that Your General Training should include Tactical Thinking.
Though in Hindsight, I phrased My Previous Reply poorly.

To Reiterate it;
Training in General is, among other things, Pad Drills and Tactical Thinking. Of course, theres alot more than that, but I was placing the Two in the same Category, but keeping them also Distinct.

In any case, Specific Training for Group Defense is mostly Tactics and Dynamics, such as, as You have said, Range, Distance, Surroundings, and so forth. In addition to Striking and whatnot.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, to a degree, but group defence really is it's own animal, so the training for it is distinct and separate (with separate tactics and methods, related, sure, but separate).

 

[Nomad]

Classic group monkey dance in the video. Agree that what the victim did was probably the worst possible response... he decided to lay hands on the first aggressor to get him out of his face, but then did so extremely half-heartedly. What happened next was pretty predictable.

If you're going to "reach out and touch someone" in this circumstance, then the touch should be preemptive, powerful, and at a vulnerable target. Then move out of that virtual corner, and keep moving.

Glad he wasn't injured much worse than he was.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah, to a degree, but group defence really is it's own animal, so the training for it is distinct and separate (with separate tactics and methods, related, sure, but separate).

Perhaps - But 1V1 SD could turn into 1V? SD before You even notice its happened. I cant help but think You should always assume their just might be someone else nearby You couldnt have noticed. But granted, Immediate Group Defense/Fighting is different to 1V1; But this is also why I put both of them on separate, distinct Plates within the same Category.

But to My First Sentence here, take for example the Guy in the Blue Top. He kind of came out of nowhere at one point.

 

[Chris Parker]

That comes down to the awareness, really.

 

[Cyriacus]

That comes down to the awareness, really.

And does General Training Teach Situational Awareness alongside Tactics, if not as a Subsection of Tactics?

 

[Chris Parker]

Yes, but the awareness informs the tactics, and the tactics for a group are different for solo, which is what I was getting at.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, but the awareness informs the tactics, and the tactics for a group are different for solo, which is what I was getting at.

Oh, I think I see what Youre doing.
Awareness before Action, where Im referring more to Awareness during Action, when Youre Inevitably Less Aware. Or possibly the other way around at some parts. Ill Re-Read some things now anyway, just in case that is backward. Just to affirm, I see what Youre saying. Awareness then Tactics then Application. Where Im saying Tactics then Awareness then Application.

I have however, Acknowledged that Solo and Group Fighting and different both Tactically and Applicably. Were moving more into the Realm of what comes slightly before that now, it seems. Which leads to what Im Suggesting, is that if You are unable to assess a Situation for possible additional Attackers, You may well be safer to simply assume there are, as oppose to assuming there arent. Which I suppose divides it into Three Categories; One Opponent, More than One Opponent, and One Opponent with more Possible Opponents.

 

[Chris Parker]

Really, your best (read: pretty much only) chance against a group is a pre-emptive attack, so the awareness has to be before the action by definition there. That said, our "regular" approach involves the recognition that there could (very easily) be more people around, so we aim to act with the goal of escape as quickly as possible, so it's a lot of hit and escape to avoid getting entangled in such a situation.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I got beat up by three guys once. I know what I did wrong.

In my case, I was watching a drunken idiot performing 'kick boxing' in public at a party. I attracted his attention. Mistake 1: don't bad stare drunken idiots.

He then approached me with two of his friends, who flanked me on either side while he approached head on. Mistake 2: don't let that happen. Move.

He then did the 'chest bump' angry-talk thing in my face; I kept his buddy to my right in my peripheral vision and when he drew back to sucker punch me, I moved into attack position and chased him back, but did not hit him. Mistake 3: I should have gone all out on guy #1 as soon as he approached (or run away, whichever) and failing that, attacked sucker-punch guy on the right instead of threatening to hit him.

Then his buddy on the left, who was now behind me, hooked his arm around my neck and pulled me to the ground. An old-fashioned ***-whipping commenced, with me as the recipient. I was nearly unconscious when some huge stranger came out of the crowd that had gathered around us and literally pulled me out of it by my armpits, scooping me up, backing away, and threatening anyone to try to stop him (no one did). I might have died if not for him. Mistake 4: Everything, basically.

I had no business being where I was. Ignoring that for the moment, I should have moved the moment I realized his buddies were flanking me. Failing that, I should have attacked out straight up the front, and failing that, to the guy on the right who tried to sucker punch me. I should have gone all-in, held nothing back, and done my best to inflict maximum damage - or run away.

This guy? As others said. He should have gotten out of the corner, and when it became clear he was about to get hit, attack.

You might still lose. If you stand there, you will lose. That's the way it goes.

 

[Cyriacus]

Really, your best (read: pretty much only) chance against a group is a pre-emptive attack, so the awareness has to be before the action by definition there. That said, our "regular" approach involves the recognition that there could (very easily) be more people around, so we aim to act with the goal of escape as quickly as possible, so it's a lot of hit and escape to avoid getting entangled in such a situation.

That makes Perfect Sense.
If One thing has changed, its My Definition of Awareness, to be more Inclusive.
Much Obliged

 

[Cyriacus]

I got beat up by three guys once. I know what I did wrong.

In my case, I was watching a drunken idiot performing 'kick boxing' in public at a party. I attracted his attention. Mistake 1: don't bad stare drunken idiots.

He then approached me with two of his friends, who flanked me on either side while he approached head on. Mistake 2: don't let that happen. Move.

He then did the 'chest bump' angry-talk thing in my face; I kept his buddy to my right in my peripheral vision and when he drew back to sucker punch me, I moved into attack position and chased him back, but did not hit him. Mistake 3: I should have gone all out on guy #1 as soon as he approached (or run away, whichever) and failing that, attacked sucker-punch guy on the right instead of threatening to hit him.

Then his buddy on the left, who was now behind me, hooked his arm around my neck and pulled me to the ground. An old-fashioned ***-whipping commenced, with me as the recipient. I was nearly unconscious when some huge stranger came out of the crowd that had gathered around us and literally pulled me out of it by my armpits, scooping me up, backing away, and threatening anyone to try to stop him (no one did). I might have died if not for him. Mistake 4: Everything, basically.

I had no business being where I was. Ignoring that for the moment, I should have moved the moment I realized his buddies were flanking me. Failing that, I should have attacked out straight up the front, and failing that, to the guy on the right who tried to sucker punch me. I should have gone all-in, held nothing back, and done my best to inflict maximum damage - or run away.

This guy? As others said. He should have gotten out of the corner, and when it became clear he was about to get hit, attack.

You might still lose. If you stand there, you will lose. That's the way it goes.

Yeah, this is where Self-Restraint can be really bad. Its not something You can be blamed for - Just something that helps to not be there when it counts.

Edit; -Optionally, Read My Signature.