Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    all corners are zero point size

    you spent several posts telling me what the uk opinion of MMA was, so clearly you do
     
  2. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I have to ask, what is the self defense/fighting benefit of learning a martial art like this;



    I can understand the cultural and educational benefits. However, what are the self defense/fighting benefits?
     
  3. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    how have you decided its a martial art ?
     
  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    that not what i asked, i asked how have you come to the conclusion thats what is shown is a martial art ?
    its fairly simple question
     
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Not really. Are you asking what we’re seeing in the video is the martial art, or just some sort of presentation?

    The video is showing demonstrations and kata. Both fairly common in Japanese MA.
     
  7. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    you said it was a ma shown, im asking how you know that

    i really shouldnt have to ask the same simple question three times
     
  8. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Uh Tenshin Shinyo Ryu is a martial art and it is being shown in that video. You having trouble reading the title of the video?
     
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    the wiki page you linked doesnt say its a ma, so how do you know it is?
     
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    You obviously didn’t read the page very well. It says it is an ancestor art to both Judo and Aikido. Also you can follow the “jujutsu” link in the wiki article to read what exactly what Jujutsu is.
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    ive read what you posted as an authoritative article and it doesnt mention the term ma at all.

    so how do you know its a ma,
     
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  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I find it incredible that a person from the U.K. has trouble reading English, and doesn’t understand how encyclopedias work.
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    dont deflect

    you said it was a ma, and it seems you now dont know why you think it a ma.

    i mean it doesnt even look like a ma, so ive no idea how you formed that opinion
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    In the wiki article, this is the first sentence;

    Tenjin Shinyo-ryu (天神真楊流, Tenjin Shin'yō-ryū), meaning "Divine True Willow School", can be classified as a traditional school (koryū) of jujutsu.

    Jujutsu should be highlighted, that means you can click it to go to another article. This is called a hyperlink. When you go to the article on Jujutsu it says this in the first sentence;


    Jujutsu (English: /dʒuːˈdʒʊtsuː/ joo-JOOT-soo; Japanese: 柔術 jūjutsu [​IMG]listen (help·info), is a family of Japanese martial arts and a system of close combat (unarmed or with a minor weapon) that can be used in a defensive or offensive manner to kill or subdue one or more weaponless or armed and armored opponents.

    If you still don’t get it after this explanation, I can’t help you. I would just recommend to stop taking blows to your head during Karate class.
     
  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll save Chris the bother of pointing out that this isn't actually Japanese Jujutsu. (Except in the same sense that BJJ is in that it is a lineal descendant of Japanese arts.)

    I think I know what you mean by "not workable techniques in this form", but you might want to clarify for those who don't. These are actual techniques and I've successfully executed about 80% of those in sparring. (Not against opponents feeding me that kind of stylized, crappy, unrealistic punching, but that certainly would have made it easier.) I do recognize that the quality of execution ranges from poor to mediocre in ways which indicate they probably don't do much (if any) actual sparring if this is a 3rd dan test.

    That might be a reasonable statement regarding an actual traditional JJJ which is focused on preservation of certain historical martial and cultural traditions. I don't think it applies to this particular school, which states on their website "most martial arts you find these days are mainly for sport, they’re for competitions and such, but in Kinjite, we teach Self-Defence, helping you become more aware of danger and how to defend your self on the streets." Their stated intent is to develop actual fighting skill - they just aren't (as far as their videos seem to indicate) very good at it.
     
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  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    now youve posted two things that disagree with each other

    how do you know which to believe ?
     
  17. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There is definitely valid martial material (both concepts and techniques) encoded in that highly stylized and formalized presentation. The real world application would obviously look significantly different.

    The presenters demonstrated actual skill in the presentation of that encoded material. I don't know whether they can actually fight - that depends on what sort of training they have done besides that stylized, formalized demonstration format. However if you gave me a practitioner who could demonstrate that level of movement skill but didn't know how to fight then I could teach them how to fight effectively much more quickly than I could a typical untrained beginner. (Conversely if an instructor in that school was willing to share their knowledge with me, I bet I could pull out something of value which I could use to improve my game. I've found that lots of schools have lost essential elements of fighting training but still retain some valuable gems which can be applied effectively by someone who does understand how to fight.)
     
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  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    This seems more like a potential of fighting ability from someone who already knows how to fight from an outside source. What about someone whose only exposure to martial arts is something like this (a kata-based MA system)? Could they be a competent fighter or defend themselves in a competent manner?
     
  19. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I assume you mean any outside source, whether another martial art or real life fighting experience.

    If they only do the kata and don’t have other elements in their training then I certainly wouldn’t count on it. I see some good stuff in their movement, but that doesn’t mean they have all the necessary pieces of the puzzle.

    (Just to be clear, I’m speaking only to your hypothetical. I don’t know what kind of training Tenjin Shinyo Ryu does behind closed doors and I don’t know what additional background any of those individuals might have.)

    BTW, I see a much higher quality of movement in the video you posted than in the one db posted with the pseudo-Japanese Jujutsu. I bet I could get one of those Tenjin Shinyo Ryu guys up to speed on actual fighting skill (if they don’t already have it) faster than the Kinjite guy.
     
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  20. BrendanF

    BrendanF Green Belt

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    Tenjin Shinyo ryu includes randori in their training, AFAIK. They also practice Kodokan Judo alongside their Jujutsu. The late shihan of the school Kubota sensei was also 8th dan Judo, and regularly taught seminars at the Kodokan.123
     
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