Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Or has it already happened?

    I've noticed a lack of traditional JJ schools over the last 10 years. Most of the ones around these days seem to be a combination of Karate, Judo, Aikido and even Bjj instead of a traditional samurai fighting style. I've also heard that in Japan, if you mention that you're looking for "Jiujitsu", the Japanese will point you to a Bjj gym. Bjj taking over the moniker of "Jiujitsu" in Japan itself..... I find that to be the irony of ironies. Here's an article about a foreigner moving to Japan, seeking to study either Bjj or JJJ, and went with Bjj because he simply couldn't find a JJJ dojo;

    The Evolution of grappling in Japan: Why did I choose Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in Japan? — Social Gelo with Angelo

    Anyway, how healthy are true traditional Japanese Jujitsu systems? Is the term "Jiujitsu" destined to be taken over by Bjj?
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,104
    Likes Received:
    980
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Yeah... so lots wrong with that article... and with a lot of the assumptions in your post.

    In short, classical jujutsu systems are exactly as they have been for a long time... relatively small schools with fairly small numbers of students. There are many reasons for this, of course, but I'm not going to get too far into that here. The main point is that the schools are fine (as far as we're concerned), and no, BJJ isn't "taking over" in Japan...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    That’s a rather bizarre argument to make. If Bjj is far more popular than any other form of Jiu-Jitsu (or however you wish to spell it) wouldn’t that mean that people would begin to associate the term with the most popular variation around?

    For example, if I’m in a city and there’s 20 Bjj schools with thousands of students and 1 JJJ school with 25 students, wouldn’t the Bjj schools have far more influence and clout by default? Thus when you have a visitor to the city who wishes to take up jitsu and they ask around, which direction do you think they’ll be pointed in?

    That’s exactly what happened to that guy in Japan.
     
  4. O'Malley

    O'Malley Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    112
    Trophy Points:
    83
    As Chris said, both the article and your post are based on inaccurate assumptions. I'm intrigued by this, though:

    Could you please point out the passage of the article that makes you say this? I might have been distracted but I've found nothing, and that's the base of the point you're trying to make.
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8,490
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    well maybe, that then depends on if the number of trad schools are increasing or reducing rather than the ratio between the two.

    bjj is it seems more popular, to be said to have replacmve the trad it need to be respobsible for a,drop in numbers

    other wise jjj is just as healthy or unhealthy as it always was
     
  6. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    This one;

    Which admittedly I misinterpreted as a selection/quantity issue instead of a quality issue.

    Also where’s the inaccurate assumption? There are a lot of Bjj schools in Japan. There are a lot of Bjj schools globally. Parker himself stated that the traditional JJ community likes to stay small, so it stands to reason that based on numbers alone, eventually the term “Jiu-Jitsu” would be associated with the more popular variant.

    It doesn’t help that the quality of traditional JJ schools can be questionable, while Bjj schools tend to have a good reputation, and a standard.
     
  7. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Well you also need to take into account the fact that some dojos that claim to be traditional JJJ are really a “soke” who combined Judo, Karate, and other stuff and claimed a phony lineage. That sort of silliness is rather rampant in the US.
     
  8. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8,490
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    well jjj is a combination of grappling and,striking, to that end its a more complete art than bjj, if people are taking the best parts of another art to improve it, thats good isnt it, or maybe it always had karrate in it.? how would you know, and judo derived from jjj, so it all ways had judo in it

    the bjj comunity is also obsessed with linage, which ive always considered silly, the art either works as its tought or it doesnt the linnage is totally irelivant to that
     
  9. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,338
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    Has boxing taken over Karate? Has Karate taken over Boxing? Has Tae Kwon Do taken over Kick-Boxing? Has Judo taken over Collegiate Wrestling? Has Muay Thai taken over Boxing/Karate/TKD? Has "Combatives" taken over fencing? Has RBSD taken over Escrima?

    What's popular will ebb and flow and often for weird reasons. Whatever is less popular isn't likely dead and probably won't be for a hundred years.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    That’s actually a fallacy. Typically what happens is that you get a mishmash with no clear focus on any one thing because there’s simply not enough time to be proficient in anything. That leads the exponent to become mediocre in everything. It works in MMA because they’re just blending competitive sports, JJJ schools attempt to blend entire martial arts systems; Kata, weapons, ceremonies, etc.

    They’re obsessed with effectiveness. Lineage doesn’t matter as long as what you’re doing works.
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Those martial arts operate in different spheres, and don’t share names.

    Actually in the case of the US, yes. Mainly because wrestlers tooled Judoka back in the day, greatly limiting Judo’s appeal in the US.

    See above.

    Again, in the case of Bjj vs JJJ, they’re sharing names, and in some cases the same sphere. That is an entirely different situation than what you’re describing above. Nowadays when someone (Especially the younger crowd) brings up Jiu-Jitsu in a fighting context, they’re almost always talking about Bjj.
     
  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8,490
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    your sayibg typically, when you clearly have no knowledge of whats typical

    jjj was a stand alone art, that had stiking and grappling in it, mostly throws, that got taken off to be judo

    its not a mish mash, thats how it was designed. its focus, at least when i did it was to out your oppinent on the floor and then to punch them repeatly so they didnt get up

    if and its a big if, as youve provided no evidence, they have improved the mechanics by borowing from other arts that good.

    what bad is when they call somethibg trad and then refuse to improve it
     
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,705
    Likes Received:
    4,207
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    You seem to be getting at a different question here than your original post seemed to indicate.

    Q1: Will the martial art of BJJ replace the martial art of JJJ?

    A1: No. Japanese Jujutsu isn’t one art, it’s a large family of arts, many/most of which are practiced for different reasons than BJJ. (The one legitimately Japanese member of that family which is commonly practiced for similar reasons as BJJ is Judo, and that is in no danger of being replaced be BJJ anytime soon.)

    Q2: Will the general public start to associate the term “jiu-jitsu/jujutsu” with BJJ rather with other members of the extended jujutsu family?

    A2: I think that’s already happening in some circles. However I think there are enough members of the jujutsu family of arts out there (including many which took their current form outside of Japan, whether they use the “Japanese” appellation or not) that I doubt the association will become universal.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    You're mixing up what I said earlier. You're talking about an actual JJJ dojo, I'm talking about the typical JJJ you see, which isn't actual JJJ. It's some guy who literally makes up a lineage, claims themselves to be a "Soke" and literally teach a mishmash of stuff instead of an actual JJJ style.

    Now if you do find a legitimate JJJ school, you could be doing something very good, if their training is up to standard.

    Which is in itself another part of the issue; If you're looking for legitimate JJJ schools, that in itself can be very difficult since there are so many charlatans out there calling what they do "Jiujitsu". Meanwhile, BJJ schools tend to have a reputation of effectiveness and legitimacy, which only makes them even more popular.
     
  15. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8,490
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    of course im talking about jjj dojo, that the subject of the discusion

    im wondering how you know what is typical? that sugest a greatnumber are poor

    i dont know if thats true or not, but then neither do you
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I think you're looking at this from a perspective of someone who practiced a JJJ (though Hatsumi's claims are disputed by certain folks), and is (no offense) an older person. I think you should look at this as someone under the age of 25. If you're under 25 and you're looking to study Jiujitsu, you're simply WAY more likely to wind up in a Bjj school than a JJJ school. That chance has exponentially increased over the last 30 years. If I type in Jujutsu in a google search, the first thing that pops up is Bjj. If I do a google maps search for a Jujutsu martial arts school, the majority is going to be Bjj. I think that's the case even in Japanese cities. If I'm around my friends or listening to Joe Rogan and they're talking about Jujitsu, they're talking about Bjj.

    What's worse is that if you do happen to run across a JJJ school, the quality of that school is suspect because there's a lot of charlatans out there who say that they're doing Japanese Jiujitsu. I've already heard some folks call JJJ "fake" and BJJ "real jiujitsu". Something I find incredibly ironic and hilarious, but I can see the basis for that belief.

    I'm sorry, I can't decipher what you're talking about here.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2020
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8,490
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    il try again

    your claiming a great number of charlatan teaching jjj

    i want to know how you know that its so many that poor quality is typical?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,878
    Likes Received:
    836
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Several ways. Sometimes its the name, sometimes its their technique videos, sometimes its simply how they look (a bunch of fat people), sometimes it's their number of black belts, etc. The JJJ school that was in my hometown that I visited before I got into Shotokan was complete BS, and I knew that as a teenager.

    Look up Japanese Jujutsu and check out some of their websites. You'll see what I mean. I'd post a few myself, but I don't want to get in trouble. :oops:
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    8,490
    Likes Received:
    1,254
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    i fear your missing the point, that there are poor schools is possibly true

    i want to know how you reached the conclusion that poor schools are "typical"

    jjj is particularly suited to fat people ,mostly small fat people, so thats not a fairway to judge

    my problem with jjj is i wasnt small or fat enough
     
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

    • Advisor
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,338
    Likes Received:
    1,100
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Huber Heights, OH
    None of that is true. Wrestling is still a major sport in the U.S., in both Primary School and College. Judo is still a major martial art and clubs can be found all over the place. There are 3 or 5 clubs within driving distance of me, and that's after two of them merged some years ago. Both Judo and Wrestling are considered strong grappling bases for MMA players to start from as one of their base arts.

    As for "tooling" Judoka, well... I guess it depends on what "back in the day" means. When Tani and Uyenishi were brought to the West by Barton-Wright, they both "tooled" much larger and stronger wrestlers with boring regularity. Perhaps you're referring to the more recent changes of a few years ago when the Single-Leg was essentially banned from Judo shiai?

    In any case, none of the arts referenced have "replaced" any of the other arts. Each still have their niche and their devoted followers.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk123
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page