Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

there not, thats what i cant belive youve posted the number of schools to show that there is awareness

So much for "the maths" then right?

ets be generous and say the numbers temrained by those schools in a week equals a thousand ,

thats 0.04 of the population, , i said close to nil and thats pretty close to nil

That would be just the people taking classes. You'd also have to include the people who are aware of Bjj and not taking classes themselves. That should increase that number quite a bit since that 1,000 people taking classes would have friends, family workers, and coworkers.

 

[jobo]

So much for "the maths" then right?



That would be just the people taking classes. You'd also have to include the people who are aware of Bjj and not taking classes themselves. That should increase that number quite a bit since that 1,000 people taking classes would have friends, family workers, and coworkers.

ok lets make it 0.05% then, its still close to nil

 

[Hanzou]

ok lets make it 0.05% then, its still close to nil

Really? According to the media, you’re a nation of MMA fans;

How the UFC phenomenon turned the UK into a nation of MMA fans

MMA fans are definitely aware of Bjj.

 

[jobo]

Really? According to the media, you’re a nation of MMA fans;

How the UFC phenomenon turned the UK into a nation of MMA fans

MMA fans are definitely aware of Bjj.

cant read that, it wants me to subscribe have you got a working link

 

[Hanzou]

cant read that, it wants me to subscribe have you got a working link

Works fine for me. Oh well. Here’s another one that states that MMA has surpassed Boxing in the UK;

Has MMA’s popularity surpassed Boxing in the UK and Ireland?

 

[jobo]

Works fine for me. Oh well. Here’s another one that states that MMA has surpassed Boxing in the UK;

Has MMA’s popularity surpassed Boxing in the UK and Ireland?

iove speed read it

the title asks a question which it doesnt answer in the text that i can see

so has it surpassed boxing ?, and how does that relate to the main question about public awareness off bjj, yes there are clubs about, thats not in dispute are you saying ibjj is as recognisable to the general public as boxing, coz i think not

 

[Hanzou]

iove speed read it

the title asks a question which it doesnt answer in the text that i can see

so has it surpassed boxing ?, and how does that relate to the main question about public awareness off bjj, yes there are clubs about, thats not in dispute are you saying ibjj is as recognisable to the general public as boxing, coz i think not

Bjj is a pretty integral part of MMA, since it is the standard grappling component of the sport. The article even points out that the growth of MMA in the UK has led to the growth of MMA related martial arts, like Bjj.

Also according to the article, MMA has matched Boxing in terms of popularity in the UK.

 

[Hanzou]

It depends on which population you're looking at. My experience is that the general population, with little experience in any Oriental Martial Art at all, doesn't have any specific awareness of BJJ as opposed to JJJ and seldom knows the difference between BJJ, Karate, and Tae Kwon Do.

Well that's sort of the point.

If Bjj is the most popular form of Jiujitsu in the world (which by all accounts it is) then pretty much every reference to Jujitsu is going to be filtered through Bjj in some form or another ESPECIALLY by those who don't know much about the history of martial arts. As the years go on, and Bjj continues to grow in popularity while other forms of Jujitsu continue to phase out, that filtration will only increase.

I mean we already have people asking what's the difference between Brazilian and Japanese Jiujitsu. So already there's a linking of the terminology based around "Jiujitsu" with the differing factor being the Brazilian and Japanese portion. There's also people who just call Bjj "Jiujitsu", which means that the entire term is being owned by one style of MA. If Bjj continues its rise in popularity, that association is only going to increase.

Frankly, the only way you stop Bjj's rise in popularity is having another JJ style come along and challenge its effectiveness. I really don't see that on the horizon, since Bjj has the tendency to absorb similar grappling systems as soon as they get a foothold.

 

[BrendanF]

I think as Chris said, JJJ has always just done it's own thing quietly off to the side. In terms of 'popularity' genuine JJJ has never enjoyed top billing in the west - the vast majority of 'JJJ' taught outside Japan consisting of modern reinterpretations that are a mishmash of Karate, Judo and Aikido.
As someone else pointed out, there have continued to be niche markets for all of these arts. I think it's great that an interest in BJJ, MMA or whatever can sometimes lead to an interest in genuine koryu bugei, and that the traditional arts have students outside of Japan.

 

[Hanzou]

I think as Chris said, JJJ has always just done it's own thing quietly off to the side. In terms of 'popularity' genuine JJJ has never enjoyed top billing in the west - the vast majority of 'JJJ' taught outside Japan consisting of modern reinterpretations that are a mishmash of Karate, Judo and Aikido.
As someone else pointed out, there have continued to be niche markets for all of these arts. I think it's great that an interest in BJJ, MMA or whatever can sometimes lead to an interest in genuine koryu bugei, and that the traditional arts have students outside of Japan.

What's your opinion of Bjj's immense popularity in Japan, and it's future implications on martial arts there?

 

[BrendanF]

About the same. It's very popular at the moment. The traditional arts are often noted as decreasing in numbers, with some saying that their futures lie outside their country of origin. I have no crystal ball in that regard, but it seems like they will continue, with a small number of people who are keen to preserve them.
I don't know what sort of impact the popularity of bjj is likely to have. Most koryu don't really deal with unarmed ground work; they almost always include the use of weapons. That's why bjj developed from Judo.

 

[BrendanF]

If you consider that modern, non-Japanese JJ is and has been (by far) the most dominant form of 'JJJ' outside Japan, you can see that legitimate koryu Jujutsu has been 'replaced' for generations.

 

[Hanzou]

If you consider that modern, non-Japanese JJ is and has been (by far) the most dominant form of 'JJJ' outside Japan, you can see that legitimate koryu Jujutsu has been 'replaced' for generations.

Actually I would say the most dominant form of JJ outside of Japan has been Judo. Bjj is the first real JJ variant to rival it in popularity.

I would agree that the Koryu has been replaced for some time. My point is that nowadays, Bjj is becoming synonymous with Ju-Jitsu to the point where if lay people are talking about Jujitsu, they’re talking about Bjj.

 

[BrendanF]

Actually I would say the most dominant form of JJ outside of Japan has been Judo. Bjj is the first real JJ variant to rival it in popularity.

I would agree that the Koryu has been replaced for some time. My point is that nowadays, Bjj is becoming synonymous with Ju-Jitsu to the point where if lay people are talking about Jujitsu, they’re talking about Bjj.

Absolutely, I would agree. On both points actually. I've found it fun to see some of the bjj crowd researching and examining the roots of their art. I guess my point was as a koryu jj student I have no problem with it.. bjj is awesome, and it's popularity is well deserved, imo. I really like some of the cultural traits it has developed through the years. They seem to align with those Judo, which my koryu does alongside the jujutsu.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh boy.... and people wonder why I'm not around so much anymore...

That’s a rather bizarre argument to make.

No, it's really not. For one thing, you'd need to clarify a whole bunch of things in your original post, such as what "traditional Japanese Jujutsu is" (as you seem incredibly confused on that throughout this thread), what "taking over" would mean, what role Japanese jujutsu fills, and whether or not you're even comparing apples and oranges... as I said, there are a hell of a lot wrong with both the article you link, and your post in the first place.

If Bjj is far more popular than any other form of Jiu-Jitsu (or however you wish to spell it) wouldn’t that mean that people would begin to associate the term with the most popular variation around?

Well, I wish to spell it in a way that actually means what it means... but the more important thing is for you to recognise what "popular" means... in this context, it means more people have heard of it, and it can occupy a more prevalent place in the minds of people hearing the words... but that doesn't mean it's "taking over" from something that didn't occupy that place in the first place... primarily due to it's lack of any genuine understanding and knowledge in the broader community. Most of what people think they know about the topic is based in fantasy and rumour, honestly... it's far more niche than people think.

For example, if I’m in a city and there’s 20 Bjj schools with thousands of students and 1 JJJ school with 25 students, wouldn’t the Bjj schools have far more influence and clout by default?

No.

The same argument would suggest that McDonalds has more "clout" and "influence" on the cuisine and culinary culture of a city than the Michelin Star restaurants... even though there's on one or two of them, and three dozen McD's in the city...

Oh, and for the record, 25 students would be huge for a classical jujutsu school... you're really applying a very inaccurate and, honestly, meaningless metric here.

Thus when you have a visitor to the city who wishes to take up jitsu and they ask around, which direction do you think they’ll be pointed in?

Who cares? The classical arts don't.

And anyone asking for "jitsu" in Japan will be looked at like they're a bit... special. "I'm sorry, you're looking for what? Truth? Real? 実? Maybe the sun? Or the day? Japan? 日? Surely you don't mean technique? Jutsu? 術? As that doesn't make sense...."

Look, in Japan, if you ask for jujutsu, they'll assume you mean BJJ just because if you're after the Japanese form, they'll think you mean Judo... in fact, if you say "No, not BJJ", the next thing they'll do is send you to a Judojo... if you ask for a restaurant, you'll be sent to a fast food place for convenience, it's going to take a bit of clarification to get past that idea... and BJJ is the same in this sense.

That’s exactly what happened to that guy in Japan.

Your guy in Japan didn't know what he was looking for. And even when he saw it, it wasn't what he wanted, and wasn't something he understood... so again, who cares? He is happy with what he found, it's just kinda funny that he went to Japan to find it... as his romantic imagery was based on fantasy and a lack of real understanding, and surprisingly, reality didn't match his fantasy... nor yours, I would suggest.

This one;

Which admittedly I misinterpreted as a selection/quantity issue instead of a quality issue.

It's a value issue. The same one you keep coming up against every time you try to discuss this... you just can't get past your own values.

Also where’s the inaccurate assumption? There are a lot of Bjj schools in Japan. There are a lot of Bjj schools globally. Parker himself stated that the traditional JJ community likes to stay small, so it stands to reason that based on numbers alone, eventually the term “Jiu-Jitsu” would be associated with the more popular variant.

Individual schools stay small.. it's a major way to ensure consistency and quality of transmission. Once again, you're applying inaccurate and meaningless metrics. And again, without googling, I would challenge you to name any Michelin Star restaurants in your city... then list the restaurants that you know people will be familiar with.

It doesn’t help that the quality of traditional JJ schools can be questionable, while Bjj schools tend to have a good reputation, and a standard.

Frankly, you have exactly nothing to base that kind of comment on.

Well you also need to take into account the fact that some dojos that claim to be traditional JJJ are really a “soke” who combined Judo, Karate, and other stuff and claimed a phony lineage. That sort of silliness is rather rampant in the US.

Er.... what on earth does that have to do with the topic? Non-Japanese non-traditional "in name only" "Jujitsu" schools have no bearing on the idea of actual Japanese jujutsu systems... so why are you bringing them up?

No, we have no need to take them into account at all. They aren't even a part of the topic.

well jjj is a combination of grappling and,striking, to that end its a more complete art than bjj, if people are taking the best parts of another art to improve it, thats good isnt it, or maybe it always had karrate in it.? how would you know, and judo derived from jjj, so it all ways had judo in it

Er.... no. To all of that. Classical jujutsu systems may contain methods of striking and grappling (bear in mind, not commonly ne waza/ground fighting at all), but are not "a combination of (them)". They are systems based on intrinsic and integral (and integrated) combative and other principles, expressed in a combative context focused around being either unarmed or lightly armed, and steeped deeply in the culture that created the art itself.

Judo was developed primarily from two classical systems of jujutsu, the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (a relatively young classical system) and the Kito Ryu (an older art that includes armoured combative methods), not "from jjj" in and of itself... as there is no such thing. There are many systems that can be classified as Japanese jujutsu, or classical jujutsu, but there is no single art of that name... and these systems can vary wildly.

Tell you what... here's some examples:

Shosho Ryu

Takenouchi Ryu

Asayama Ichiden Ryu

Shibukawa Ichi Ryu

Yagyu Shingan Ryu

Notice anything? While they all involved unarmed methods, there was also a large amount of weaponry involved... classical systems are rarely as cut and dried as to their classification as modern (overly specialist and restricted) systems are.

the bjj comunity is also obsessed with linage, which ive always considered silly, the art either works as its tought or it doesnt the linnage is totally irelivant to that

Lineage is a way of ensuring that you're learning from someone who has credibility. Is it the be-all, end-all? Not necessarily. I would say it's far more important in classical arts, with lessening amounts of importance the more it goes towards sports, although even there it can mean a fair bit... getting a black belt from one of the Gracie clan themselves, rather than Fred down the road, means something... and even there, some Gracies have more "cred" than others.

That’s actually a fallacy. Typically what happens is that you get a mishmash with no clear focus on any one thing because there’s simply not enough time to be proficient in anything. That leads the exponent to become mediocre in everything. It works in MMA because they’re just blending competitive sports, JJJ schools attempt to blend entire martial arts systems; Kata, weapons, ceremonies, etc.

Not any actual Japanese Jujutsu system I know of...

They’re obsessed with effectiveness. Lineage doesn’t matter as long as what you’re doing works.

See above.

Those martial arts operate in different spheres, and don’t share names.

So it's just about names, is it? Okay...

Boxing? Fisticuffs? Pugilism? Queensbury Rules?

Wrestling? Catch-as-catch-can? Grappling?

Jujutsu? Wajutsu? Yawara? Te? Gi? Hade? Taijutsu?

Can you differentiate the above?

And what makes you think Classical Japanese jujutsu systems operate "in the same sphere" as BJJ?

Again, in the case of Bjj vs JJJ, they’re sharing names, and in some cases the same sphere. That is an entirely different situation than what you’re describing above. Nowadays when someone (Especially the younger crowd) brings up Jiu-Jitsu in a fighting context, they’re almost always talking about Bjj.

So marketing works? Cool. But you have no clue what you're talking about if you think they're in the same sphere...

jjj was a stand alone art, that had stiking and grappling in it, mostly throws, that got taken off to be judo

Er..... no.

Later (mid-to-late Edo Jidai) there would be more jujutsu-centric schools, but they were rarely "stand alone" systems... weapons were almost always included in some form. And, no, "throws" didn't get "taken off to be judo"... that's such a misrepresentation of the situation I hardly know where to start....

its not a mish mash, thats how it was designed. its focus, at least when i did it was to out your oppinent on the floor and then to punch them repeatly so they didnt get up

Yeah... that doesn't sound like any Japanese jujutsu system I'm familiar with...

if and its a big if, as youve provided no evidence, they have improved the mechanics by borowing from other arts that good.

Not if it's a classical system and it moves the art away from it's essential principles.

what bad is when they call somethibg trad and then refuse to improve it

You'd need to define "traditional" and "improve"... but until then... I'm going to disagree with you. Context and pedagogy is very important here.

You're mixing up what I said earlier. You're talking about an actual JJJ dojo, I'm talking about the typical JJJ you see, which isn't actual JJJ. It's some guy who literally makes up a lineage, claims themselves to be a "Soke" and literally teach a mishmash of stuff instead of an actual JJJ style.

So your discussion about the popularity or lack thereof for Japanese Jujutsu isn't even about Japanese Jujutsu, it's about Western imitations? What?

Now if you do find a legitimate JJJ school, you could be doing something very good, if their training is up to standard.

I'll be blunt here.

Your idea of "up to standard" means exactly nothing. You don't know what the standards or metrics are.

Which is in itself another part of the issue; If you're looking for legitimate JJJ schools, that in itself can be very difficult since there are so many charlatans out there calling what they do "Jiujitsu". Meanwhile, BJJ schools tend to have a reputation of effectiveness and legitimacy, which only makes them even more popular.

Again, meaningless metrics. These are your values... please don't apply them to things outside your ken.

I think you're looking at this from a perspective of someone who practiced a JJJ (though Hatsumi's claims are disputed by certain folks), and is (no offense) an older person.

You mean... Tony is applying the term "traditional Japanese jujutsu" to mean traditional arts of jujutsu that are based in Japan in culture, origin, and location, supported by the article in your OP discussing classical jujutsu systems.... and that's not what you meant, as you're applying your own definition to terms already defined in your own work? Yeah.... not gonna think it's Tony's background that's the problem...

I think you should look at this as someone under the age of 25. If you're under 25 and you're looking to study Jiujitsu, you're simply WAY more likely to wind up in a Bjj school than a JJJ school.

Why? Why should he? And what does it matter if generic 20 year olds in random worldwide locations (where there is not likely to be anything like actual traditional Japanese jujutsu around anyway) would end up in BJJ? If someone is after BJJ, they're not often going to be happy in a classical school... and people who appreciate classical schools tend to not be overly interested in BJJ... those that are, however, tend to come from a far more educated standpoint than the other way round, as they understand the structure of martial arts, the lessons, and more, to a much greater degree... and tend to use BJJ only as a way to understand their own art more. It's why I trained in it, after all.

That chance has exponentially increased over the last 30 years.

HAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!

Seriously?!?!?! You don't say!!!!!!

Hmm... let's go back 30 years, shall we? 1990... well, let's say early 90's... I wonder what happened then? Oh, that's right! The Gracie's decided to branch their schools into the US, and put on one of the most impressive marketing ads (and most ambitious) I've seen... they called it the "Ultimate Fighting Championship".... before that, how many people (outside of Brazil) had even heard of BJJ?

That said, I don't think "exponentially" is correct... it was for a little while, sure... but now BJJ is often seen as part of an MMA training, rather than a distinct approach for it's own sake... so "exponentially" is not really accurate anymore...

If I type in Jujutsu in a google search, the first thing that pops up is Bjj. If I do a google maps search for a Jujutsu martial arts school, the majority is going to be Bjj.

So talk to Google's search algorithms...?

Look, BJJ has been very successful in spreading around the world. By contrast, classical (traditional) Japanese jujutsu systems have very deliberately not spread. Again, these are not, in any way, comparable approaches.

I think that's the case even in Japanese cities.

Based on.....?

If I'm around my friends or listening to Joe Rogan and they're talking about Jujitsu, they're talking about Bjj.

And, to quote one of my favourite comedians, the late, great Bill Hicks: "No-one asked the one question I wanted asked... 'Yeah? And? So? What?'"

Seriously? A group of BJJ guys, BJJ practitioners, talking with a BJJ practitioner, or listening to an MMA/BJJ fan, in the context of discussing "jujitsu" automatically relate it all to BJJ?

Honestly, I'm shocked....

What's worse is that if you do happen to run across a JJJ school, the quality of that school is suspect because there's a lot of charlatans out there who say that they're doing Japanese Jiujitsu. I've already heard some folks call JJJ "fake" and BJJ "real jiujitsu". Something I find incredibly ironic and hilarious, but I can see the basis for that belief.

Western creations are not anything to this discussion. Your comment on quality is baseless. And people who consider legitimate classical jujutsu "fake", and BJJ "real" is frankly just funny to me. And does nothing but demonstrate their lack of understanding and awareness.

Several ways. Sometimes its the name, sometimes its their technique videos, sometimes its simply how they look (a bunch of fat people), sometimes it's their number of black belts, etc. The JJJ school that was in my hometown that I visited before I got into Shotokan was complete BS, and I knew that as a teenager.

Which ryu-ha was taught at the school? Without that, I am not seeing anything of relevance, other than that you had exposure to something that didn't match your values, and have latched onto the idea that that is representative of everything.

Look up Japanese Jujutsu and check out some of their websites. You'll see what I mean. I'd post a few myself, but I don't want to get in trouble.

Yeah... that won't cut it. I mean... you're telling us to look up Japanese jujutsu... if I do that, I know what is and isn't Japanese jujutsu, so... I know what I'll find. If someone with no clue does, and finds a bunch of cobbled together Western creations? Well... yeah? And? It's not Japanese jujutsu then, by definition, despite what they label themselves as, so what does it matter?

It's not possibly true, it is true. In fact it's to the point now where if I was looking for a JJJ school to practice at, I would have a hard time finding a good one.

You'd have a hard time finding a genuine one... bit of a difference there.

As I've said, these schools tend to be small, private, with minimal numbers... your article (and my videos) mention Takenouchi Ryu. So let's say you wanted to train in that. There are two "mainline" forms, the Soke line and the Sodenke line. Let's say you want to train in the Soke (Honke) line. Great. You have a total list of placed in the world to go to... Okayama, Japan. The keikoba (main dojo) and all branch dojo are there. How about the Sodenke line, then? Same. One dojo in Okayama.

Let's say you wanted to train in Iga Ryu-ha Katsushin Ryu, then? Well, then you're off to Ibaraki... oh, and as the school is taught together with Muhi Muteki Ryu Jojutsu, then I guess you'll be learning that as well.

Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu? You can find that in Tokyo... of course, the current Shihan, Kubota Nobuhiro, is not accepting foreign students due to the issues found in the past... but you can find that outside of Japan! You need to go to Sydney, Australia, or to the UK... if you're after Yagyu Shingan Ryu Chikuosha, outside of Japan you have Gunnedah in New South Wales (Aus.), or you have France... nowhere else. And so it goes.

You are simply not going to find a genuine school of Classical Japanese anything on the doorstep... let alone getting into something as specific as Jujutsu. That said, if you are genuinely interested, there are ways to find a real school... but it's a bit more than a google search can give you. This is by design.

I didn't say poor, I said that they're charlatans. That doesn't necessarily mean that what they're teaching is "poor", it just means they aren't teaching actual Japanese JJ, yet they're claiming that they are.

Then why discuss them in the context of Japanese Jujutsu being "replaced"? They aren't even Japanese jujutsu in the first place!

Yeah, typically if a grossly overweight people is teaching you a physical exercise, that means that the physical exercise they're doing isn't working very well.

That depends on if what's being done is a form of exercise, neh? Then what form of exercise it's meant to be?

It would be American, since the founder founded the style in America, and used a large amount of Western influences like boxing and western wrestling. It is a Gendai Jujutsu just like Bjj. However unlike Bjj, it never took hold in Japan the way Bjj currently is.

No. Neither these Western creations, nor BJJ, are Gendai jujutsu. Mainly as something being "Gendai" is a Japanese classification relating to Japanese history and cultural shifts... if it's not Japanese, it's not Gendai, Koryu, or anything else.

We'll there's a difference between the driving force of Bjj's popularity, and the popularity waves of previous martial arts. Before the first UFC, the martial art "fad" was typically driven by films and television. The Kung Fu craze largely came from Bruce Lee. The Karate craze largely came from the Karate Kid and/or Chuck Norris. The Ninja craze came from various Ninja movies in the 80s. The kickboxing craze came from Jean Claude Van Damme films. The Aikido craze came from Steven Segal movies in the early 90s.

This Bjj wave isn't driven by that, it's driven by perceived effectiveness of the system itself. That perception hasn't really changed in almost three decades, and thanks to Bjj's rather fluid system of reinventing itself, I don't see that really changing in the foreseeable future. I, like you were concerned about the direction that sport Bjj was taking the art, but I think Danaher really dispelled those fears due to merging the ridiculous stuff like butt scooting and berimbolos with leg locks and open guard sweeps.

The top guy in sport Bjj currently is Gordon Ryan, and he has ambitions to go MMA within the next year or so. If not for that closeness of Sport Bjj and MMA I would be concerned, but as I've said many times, MMA keeps Sport Bjj honest, and never allows it to go too far off the pasture.

So your argument is that these earlier "trends" were based in popular culture, imagery, marketing, and capturing the attention, imagination, and fantasy of the public, but that BJJ's isn't?

Right....

UFC
MMA
TapOut

Do tell me when we're not looking at popular culture, imagery, marketing, and capturing the attention, imagination, and fantasy of the public...

Well keep in mind, I'm limiting this to just "Jujutsu", not Aikido, Judo, or Karate.

Are you sure? You seem to be limiting it to Western inventions while discussing traditional Japanese jujutsu... but, for the record, Aikido and Judo would easily qualify as "modern Japanese jujutsu"... with Aikido being a bit more traditional, and Judo being a bit less (albeit less now than what Kano had in mind...). And, as far as karate is concerned, we might look at the case study of Wado Ryu... or, to give it its' full name, Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo Karatejutsu... which is ostensibly a modern iteration of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu combined with Shotokan Karate...

Again, if you're constantly hearing that "Jujitsu" is effective, you're going to seek out something with "Jujitsu" in the title, and you're going to bypass anything that doesn't have jujutsu/jiujitsu in its title. So once again, what happens when you go through the jujutsu options in your area and they simply don't measure up to Bjj?

Again, your values. When it comes to Classical Japanese arts, your values have no real bearing at all. To me, for instance, as my values are wildly different to yours, BJJ simply doesn't measure up in any fashion whatsoever. And you know what? That's okay. I appreciate it for what it is, and don't expect it to have what I'm looking for. I suggest you try a similar tact.

During the course of this conversation, I took the liberty of going through some "traditional" Japanese Jujitsu schools in some major US cities. The results (to be kind) weren't very encouraging.

Without knowing what you looked at, this is quite meaningless... especially as you have been unable to differentiate between actual Japanese systems and others...

We also have to consider WHY the other Gendai jujitsus never gained the level of popularity that Bjj has achieved, even in Japan. It comes down to the effectiveness of the system, and while there is a chance that in the future another system will come along and replace it, Bjj is going to continue to grow until that happens.

Firstly, it's not a Gendai system. Covered that.

Second, no, we don't have to consider why... but if we are, it's dominantly marketing. Effectiveness is just one of the ways it markets itself. And that appeals to a certain core value. But it's also limiting... and that's going to be the problem down the track. But until then, it's fine.

Actually I would say the most dominant form of JJ outside of Japan has been Judo. Bjj is the first real JJ variant to rival it in popularity.

That's more like it. Yes, and here we are talking more about two arts that exist in the same wheelhouse, more or less... of course, the marketing (yeah, it's more important than you seem to realise) is a bit different... Judo markets itself dominantly as a sport, with additional benefits more in keeping with Japanese cultural aspects... BJJ markets itself as a "self defence answer", and uses competition to bolster it's own self-image that way. In other words, BJJ uses competition to promote it's marketing image as "effective" (although the elephant in the room of contextual effectiveness seems to confuse most BJJ guys I talk to...), while Judo promotes Japanese cultural values and growth through competition.

I would agree that the Koryu has been replaced for some time.

Replaced? No, I wouldn't say so... again, it's not like McDonalds has replaced Michelin Star restaurants...

My point is that nowadays, Bjj is becoming synonymous with Ju-Jitsu to the point where if lay people are talking about Jujitsu, they’re talking about Bjj.

In certain circles, yeah. In traditional (classical) Japanese art circles? Not at all. And that's the point. We're talking about two different communities who discuss two different contexts... thinking they're even closely related is to mistake the reality entirely.

 

[jobo]

Oh boy.... and people wonder why I'm not around so much anymore...



No, it's really not. For one thing, you'd need to clarify a whole bunch of things in your original post, such as what "traditional Japanese Jujutsu is" (as you seem incredibly confused on that throughout this thread), what "taking over" would mean, what role Japanese jujutsu fills, and whether or not you're even comparing apples and oranges... as I said, there are a hell of a lot wrong with both the article you link, and your post in the first place.



Well, I wish to spell it in a way that actually means what it means... but the more important thing is for you to recognise what "popular" means... in this context, it means more people have heard of it, and it can occupy a more prevalent place in the minds of people hearing the words... but that doesn't mean it's "taking over" from something that didn't occupy that place in the first place... primarily due to it's lack of any genuine understanding and knowledge in the broader community. Most of what people think they know about the topic is based in fantasy and rumour, honestly... it's far more niche than people think.



No.

The same argument would suggest that McDonalds has more "clout" and "influence" on the cuisine and culinary culture of a city than the Michelin Star restaurants... even though there's on one or two of them, and three dozen McD's in the city...

Oh, and for the record, 25 students would be huge for a classical jujutsu school... you're really applying a very inaccurate and, honestly, meaningless metric here.



Who cares? The classical arts don't.

And anyone asking for "jitsu" in Japan will be looked at like they're a bit... special. "I'm sorry, you're looking for what? Truth? Real? 実? Maybe the sun? Or the day? Japan? 日? Surely you don't mean technique? Jutsu? 術? As that doesn't make sense...."

Look, in Japan, if you ask for jujutsu, they'll assume you mean BJJ just because if you're after the Japanese form, they'll think you mean Judo... in fact, if you say "No, not BJJ", the next thing they'll do is send you to a Judojo... if you ask for a restaurant, you'll be sent to a fast food place for convenience, it's going to take a bit of clarification to get past that idea... and BJJ is the same in this sense.



Your guy in Japan didn't know what he was looking for. And even when he saw it, it wasn't what he wanted, and wasn't something he understood... so again, who cares? He is happy with what he found, it's just kinda funny that he went to Japan to find it... as his romantic imagery was based on fantasy and a lack of real understanding, and surprisingly, reality didn't match his fantasy... nor yours, I would suggest.



It's a value issue. The same one you keep coming up against every time you try to discuss this... you just can't get past your own values.



Individual schools stay small.. it's a major way to ensure consistency and quality of transmission. Once again, you're applying inaccurate and meaningless metrics. And again, without googling, I would challenge you to name any Michelin Star restaurants in your city... then list the restaurants that you know people will be familiar with.



Frankly, you have exactly nothing to base that kind of comment on.



Er.... what on earth does that have to do with the topic? Non-Japanese non-traditional "in name only" "Jujitsu" schools have no bearing on the idea of actual Japanese jujutsu systems... so why are you bringing them up?

No, we have no need to take them into account at all. They aren't even a part of the topic.



Er.... no. To all of that. Classical jujutsu systems may contain methods of striking and grappling (bear in mind, not commonly ne waza/ground fighting at all), but are not "a combination of (them)". They are systems based on intrinsic and integral (and integrated) combative and other principles, expressed in a combative context focused around being either unarmed or lightly armed, and steeped deeply in the culture that created the art itself.

Judo was developed primarily from two classical systems of jujutsu, the Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu (a relatively young classical system) and the Kito Ryu (an older art that includes armoured combative methods), not "from jjj" in and of itself... as there is no such thing. There are many systems that can be classified as Japanese jujutsu, or classical jujutsu, but there is no single art of that name... and these systems can vary wildly.

Tell you what... here's some examples:

Shosho Ryu

Takenouchi Ryu

Asayama Ichiden Ryu

Shibukawa Ichi Ryu

Yagyu Shingan Ryu

Notice anything? While they all involved unarmed methods, there was also a large amount of weaponry involved... classical systems are rarely as cut and dried as to their classification as modern (overly specialist and restricted) systems are.



Lineage is a way of ensuring that you're learning from someone who has credibility. Is it the be-all, end-all? Not necessarily. I would say it's far more important in classical arts, with lessening amounts of importance the more it goes towards sports, although even there it can mean a fair bit... getting a black belt from one of the Gracie clan themselves, rather than Fred down the road, means something... and even there, some Gracies have more "cred" than others.



Not any actual Japanese Jujutsu system I know of...



See above.



So it's just about names, is it? Okay...

Boxing? Fisticuffs? Pugilism? Queensbury Rules?

Wrestling? Catch-as-catch-can? Grappling?

Jujutsu? Wajutsu? Yawara? Te? Gi? Hade? Taijutsu?

Can you differentiate the above?

And what makes you think Classical Japanese jujutsu systems operate "in the same sphere" as BJJ?



So marketing works? Cool. But you have no clue what you're talking about if you think they're in the same sphere...



Er..... no.

Later (mid-to-late Edo Jidai) there would be more jujutsu-centric schools, but they were rarely "stand alone" systems... weapons were almost always included in some form. And, no, "throws" didn't get "taken off to be judo"... that's such a misrepresentation of the situation I hardly know where to start....



Yeah... that doesn't sound like any Japanese jujutsu system I'm familiar with...



Not if it's a classical system and it moves the art away from it's essential principles.



You'd need to define "traditional" and "improve"... but until then... I'm going to disagree with you. Context and pedagogy is very important here.



So your discussion about the popularity or lack thereof for Japanese Jujutsu isn't even about Japanese Jujutsu, it's about Western imitations? What?



I'll be blunt here.

Your idea of "up to standard" means exactly nothing. You don't know what the standards or metrics are.



Again, meaningless metrics. These are your values... please don't apply them to things outside your ken.



You mean... Tony is applying the term "traditional Japanese jujutsu" to mean traditional arts of jujutsu that are based in Japan in culture, origin, and location, supported by the article in your OP discussing classical jujutsu systems.... and that's not what you meant, as you're applying your own definition to terms already defined in your own work? Yeah.... not gonna think it's Tony's background that's the problem...



Why? Why should he? And what does it matter if generic 20 year olds in random worldwide locations (where there is not likely to be anything like actual traditional Japanese jujutsu around anyway) would end up in BJJ? If someone is after BJJ, they're not often going to be happy in a classical school... and people who appreciate classical schools tend to not be overly interested in BJJ... those that are, however, tend to come from a far more educated standpoint than the other way round, as they understand the structure of martial arts, the lessons, and more, to a much greater degree... and tend to use BJJ only as a way to understand their own art more. It's why I trained in it, after all.



HAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!

Seriously?!?!?! You don't say!!!!!!

Hmm... let's go back 30 years, shall we? 1990... well, let's say early 90's... I wonder what happened then? Oh, that's right! The Gracie's decided to branch their schools into the US, and put on one of the most impressive marketing ads (and most ambitious) I've seen... they called it the "Ultimate Fighting Championship".... before that, how many people (outside of Brazil) had even heard of BJJ?

That said, I don't think "exponentially" is correct... it was for a little while, sure... but now BJJ is often seen as part of an MMA training, rather than a distinct approach for it's own sake... so "exponentially" is not really accurate anymore...



So talk to Google's search algorithms...?

Look, BJJ has been very successful in spreading around the world. By contrast, classical (traditional) Japanese jujutsu systems have very deliberately not spread. Again, these are not, in any way, comparable approaches.



Based on.....?



And, to quote one of my favourite comedians, the late, great Bill Hicks: "No-one asked the one question I wanted asked... 'Yeah? And? So? What?'"

Seriously? A group of BJJ guys, BJJ practitioners, talking with a BJJ practitioner, or listening to an MMA/BJJ fan, in the context of discussing "jujitsu" automatically relate it all to BJJ?

Honestly, I'm shocked....



Western creations are not anything to this discussion. Your comment on quality is baseless. And people who consider legitimate classical jujutsu "fake", and BJJ "real" is frankly just funny to me. And does nothing but demonstrate their lack of understanding and awareness.



Which ryu-ha was taught at the school? Without that, I am not seeing anything of relevance, other than that you had exposure to something that didn't match your values, and have latched onto the idea that that is representative of everything.



Yeah... that won't cut it. I mean... you're telling us to look up Japanese jujutsu... if I do that, I know what is and isn't Japanese jujutsu, so... I know what I'll find. If someone with no clue does, and finds a bunch of cobbled together Western creations? Well... yeah? And? It's not Japanese jujutsu then, by definition, despite what they label themselves as, so what does it matter?



You'd have a hard time finding a genuine one... bit of a difference there.

As I've said, these schools tend to be small, private, with minimal numbers... your article (and my videos) mention Takenouchi Ryu. So let's say you wanted to train in that. There are two "mainline" forms, the Soke line and the Sodenke line. Let's say you want to train in the Soke (Honke) line. Great. You have a total list of placed in the world to go to... Okayama, Japan. The keikoba (main dojo) and all branch dojo are there. How about the Sodenke line, then? Same. One dojo in Okayama.

Let's say you wanted to train in Iga Ryu-ha Katsushin Ryu, then? Well, then you're off to Ibaraki... oh, and as the school is taught together with Muhi Muteki Ryu Jojutsu, then I guess you'll be learning that as well.

Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu? You can find that in Tokyo... of course, the current Shihan, Kubota Nobuhiro, is not accepting foreign students due to the issues found in the past... but you can find that outside of Japan! You need to go to Sydney, Australia, or to the UK... if you're after Yagyu Shingan Ryu Chikuosha, outside of Japan you have Gunnedah in New South Wales (Aus.), or you have France... nowhere else. And so it goes.

You are simply not going to find a genuine school of Classical Japanese anything on the doorstep... let alone getting into something as specific as Jujutsu. That said, if you are genuinely interested, there are ways to find a real school... but it's a bit more than a google search can give you. This is by design.



Then why discuss them in the context of Japanese Jujutsu being "replaced"? They aren't even Japanese jujutsu in the first place!



That depends on if what's being done is a form of exercise, neh? Then what form of exercise it's meant to be?



No. Neither these Western creations, nor BJJ, are Gendai jujutsu. Mainly as something being "Gendai" is a Japanese classification relating to Japanese history and cultural shifts... if it's not Japanese, it's not Gendai, Koryu, or anything else.



So your argument is that these earlier "trends" were based in popular culture, imagery, marketing, and capturing the attention, imagination, and fantasy of the public, but that BJJ's isn't?

Right....

UFC
MMA
TapOut

Do tell me when we're not looking at popular culture, imagery, marketing, and capturing the attention, imagination, and fantasy of the public...



Are you sure? You seem to be limiting it to Western inventions while discussing traditional Japanese jujutsu... but, for the record, Aikido and Judo would easily qualify as "modern Japanese jujutsu"... with Aikido being a bit more traditional, and Judo being a bit less (albeit less now than what Kano had in mind...). And, as far as karate is concerned, we might look at the case study of Wado Ryu... or, to give it its' full name, Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo Karatejutsu... which is ostensibly a modern iteration of Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu combined with Shotokan Karate...



Again, your values. When it comes to Classical Japanese arts, your values have no real bearing at all. To me, for instance, as my values are wildly different to yours, BJJ simply doesn't measure up in any fashion whatsoever. And you know what? That's okay. I appreciate it for what it is, and don't expect it to have what I'm looking for. I suggest you try a similar tact.



Without knowing what you looked at, this is quite meaningless... especially as you have been unable to differentiate between actual Japanese systems and others...



Firstly, it's not a Gendai system. Covered that.

Second, no, we don't have to consider why... but if we are, it's dominantly marketing. Effectiveness is just one of the ways it markets itself. And that appeals to a certain core value. But it's also limiting... and that's going to be the problem down the track. But until then, it's fine.



That's more like it. Yes, and here we are talking more about two arts that exist in the same wheelhouse, more or less... of course, the marketing (yeah, it's more important than you seem to realise) is a bit different... Judo markets itself dominantly as a sport, with additional benefits more in keeping with Japanese cultural aspects... BJJ markets itself as a "self defence answer", and uses competition to bolster it's own self-image that way. In other words, BJJ uses competition to promote it's marketing image as "effective" (although the elephant in the room of contextual effectiveness seems to confuse most BJJ guys I talk to...), while Judo promotes Japanese cultural values and growth through competition.



Replaced? No, I wouldn't say so... again, it's not like McDonalds has replaced Michelin Star restaurants...



In certain circles, yeah. In traditional (classical) Japanese art circles? Not at all. And that's the point. We're talking about two different communities who discuss two different contexts... thinking they're even closely related is to mistake the reality entirely.

getting a belt of the graces, is probably good, getting a belt from someone 20 times removed from the graces, is no better than bill down the road.

you use the term credability rather than using a performance base. yes it will have more credability in bjj circles , no it wont by any means make you better at the art

the same thing applies, to tma, yes you can claim authenticity , but the art may be authentically very poor( or at least has evolved that way), you need to view ma as a sport, unless your on some cultural exchange mission, then fine, authenticity is where its at

for people who are at least partly intrested in an ability to perform in a fight then its meaningless, performance is the only objective measure

if you belive that authenticity and performance equate, then your misguided

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear lord...

getting a belt of the graces, is probably good, getting a belt from someone 20 times removed from the graces, is no better than bill down the road.

Yes, that's the gist of it...

you use the term credability rather than using a performance base. yes it will have more credability in bjj circles , no it wont by any means make you better at the art

True.

the same thing applies, to tma, yes you can claim authenticity , but the art may be authentically very poor, you need to view ma as a sport, unless your on some cultural exchange mission, then fine, authenticity is where its at

No.

Same thing... you're applying values that have no real meaning here. No, we absolutely do NOT need to "view martial arts as a sport"... to do so is to get them fundamentally wrong, at least in this context. And authenticity is the seal of quality in regards to classical systems. I get it, this is outside your experience... that's fine. But it's also the reality, so I heartily suggest you don't try to dictate your limited understanding on what is actually done by others.

for people who are at least partly intrested in an ability to perform in a fight then its meaningless, performance is the only objective measure

No, it's not. And performance is always contextually dependent. What does "performance" mean in a classical system of dealing with an armoured and armed opponent using archaic weaponry? What does it mean when dealing with social conventions and constructs found in the 16th Century in Japan? Do you get what classical systems are about now?

if yi belive that authenticity and performance equate, then your misguided

And I would counter that you're simply unaware and uneducated in this arena. But here's a blog that puts it best, to my mind:

The Importance of Paper in Japanese Martial Traditions – 古現武道

Read that a few times, and you may start to see where we come from in this regard.

 

[jobo]

Oh dear lord...



Yes, that's the gist of it...



True.



No.

Same thing... you're applying values that have no real meaning here. No, we absolutely do NOT need to "view martial arts as a sport"... to do so is to get them fundamentally wrong, at least in this context. And authenticity is the seal of quality in regards to classical systems. I get it, this is outside your experience... that's fine. But it's also the reality, so I heartily suggest you don't try to dictate your limited understanding on what is actually done by others.



No, it's not. And performance is always contextually dependent. What does "performance" mean in a classical system of dealing with an armoured and armed opponent using archaic weaponry? What does it mean when dealing with social conventions and constructs found in the 16th Century in Japan? Do you get what classical systems are about now?



And I would counter that you're simply unaware and uneducated in this arena. But here's a blog that puts it best, to my mind:

The Importance of Paper in Japanese Martial Traditions – 古現武道

Read that a few times, and you may start to see where we come from in this regard.

you rather make my point, being authentical trained to deal with cavilary( or any other 16th century phenomena) attacks, is cultural rather than any actual use.

so performance has two facets, 1) its something that may foreseeably arise in the 21st century

2) if it does arise then you have the skills to deal with

im using skills on the wider context of physical development as well as discrete moves.

to that end it performanced based
im not tell you how you should use yoyr time and money, rather pointing out that beyond intelectual intrest, it not really any great use,

hell a friend of nine collect old beer bottles, so i see where your comming from,

 

[Chris Parker]

Jobo, honestly, you don't have the first clue what you're talking about, and are continuing to apply your values to a system and approach that, frankly, doesn't care about your values.

Yes, there are values relating to today. Yes, there are values relating to cultural preservation. No, they don't have to be sports. No, we don't care too much about performance excepting in the context of the arts themselves. No, you don't get that. Yes, that's okay. But recognise it, yeah?

Look at the videos I linked. Tell me any of those "need to be considered as sports." Then, if you do, know that you're wrong.

 

[jobo]

Jobo, honestly, you don't have the first clue what you're talking about, and are continuing to apply your values to a system and approach that, frankly, doesn't care about your values.

Yes, there are values relating to today. Yes, there are values relating to cultural preservation. No, they don't have to be sports. No, we don't care too much about performance excepting in the context of the arts themselves. No, you don't get that. Yes, that's okay. But recognise it, yeah?

Look at the videos I linked. Tell me any of those "need to be considered as sports." Then, if you do, know that you're wrong.

well its the opposite, your tellibg me im wrong, for not seeing the world through your eyes, .
i and probably the majority of peole who sign up for tma have no desire to turn our lives into a moving musium exibit.

you do thats fine, your like my friend with his 1800s beer bottles, i like my beer bottles to contain beer and my ma skills to be relivant and vaguely useful

i think thats a reasonable view point