Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

@BrendanF this is the type of randori that would more than likely be found in that classical JJ;

And that is nothing like Judo randori, or Bjj rolling. In fact, it is a far less reliable training tool.

 

[jobo]

You said that this classical JJ style had randori in it that resembles Judo. I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence of this, because everything I've read about this system shows that it's almost entirely based on various forms of kata.




I do Brazilian Jiujitsu for self defense. I wear a gi to both denote rank, and to learn how to utilize certain grips when grappling. In all honesty though, I prefer no-gi Bjj do to the wear and tear gi grips can cause to the hands.



Saying that you're playing dress up isn't an opinion. You're wearing a traditional outfit, you're learning Japanese, you're doing various ceremonies and rituals, you're doing choreographed movements based on combat scenarios from feudal Japan, you're utilizing obsolete and outdated weapons and fighting tactics, etc. Where's the lie? What makes you any different than a historical reenactor?



Again, our uniform serves a purpose when we're fighting, and our martial art is designed for modern self defense. In addition some Bjj schools don't use the gi at all. So no, it's not even close to the same thing.



See above.



I've been around guns my entire life, and I learned to shoot when I was very young by my grandfather (though I currently don't own a firearm). I also own a katana (bought it from a nice old Asian lady at a flea market some years back). Finally I was attacked by an assailant wielding a hammer.

However, why would I need to be well versed in weaponry to say that a medieval sword or a polearm are obsolete weapons? That's sort of common sense.

the outfit is a bogus point to be honest you have to wear something, if your outfit is designed for your art and you've bought it specially, then its exactly the same, you cant really wear it on a night out, most sports have uniforms, the squash club wouldn't let me play in jeans and outdoor shoes, the pool team insist on smart pants and a polo shirt, you go, you wear the uniform

i turn up for karate in combats and a sweat shirt which i already own, which is probably false economy as i keep wrecking sweat shirts, and it would certainly be cheaper to to wear a gi, but then id have to change before i went home, so swings and roundabouts

 

[lklawson]

It's an oft-cited reason... however BJJ's "effectiveness in self defence" is demonstrated/marketed through it's competitive side... that's really where the reputation and image comes from. Claiming one context when really demonstrating another. Now, that's not an issue... the conflation of the two contexts into one image is not uncommon, nor is it poorly done. Is it incorrect, or misleading? Yeah, it is... but not in a way that is overly meaningful to most.

To be honest, it's fairly common, at least in Western culture. If you look at old Boxing manuals from the early 20th C. and earlier, they're quite often self-described "art of defense" manuals, using boxing. And then the manual goes on to describe boxing within the context of the rule set of the day. While some of them do include some instruction on foul and illegal techniques "wink wink nudge nudge," the gist of it was to rules-legal boxing.

It also wasn't particularly rare to have one manual with sections on Boxing, Wrestling, and Fencing.


Physical Culture and Self Defense by lklawson

The Science of Self Defense by lklawson

Fencing, Boxing, and Wrestling, 1897 by lklawson

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

the outfit is a bogus point to be honest you have to wear something, if your outfit is designed for your art and you've bought it specially, then its exactly the same, you cant really wear it on a night out, most sports have uniforms, the squash club wouldn't let me play in jeans and outdoor shoes

Not really. The sleeve grips and collar chokes are extremely useful self defense skills picked up from utilizing the gi. I've been able to control people by simply using the sleeve grip.

That said, No-gi is also very good because it provides training in more universal grips, and buying a rash guard and some sweat pants/shorts is far cheaper than a Bjj gi.

 

[lklawson]

There is definitely valid martial material (both concepts and techniques) encoded in that highly stylized and formalized presentation. The real world application would obviously look significantly different.

The presenters demonstrated actual skill in the presentation of that encoded material. I don't know whether they can actually fight - that depends on what sort of training they have done besides that stylized, formalized demonstration format. However if you gave me a practitioner who could demonstrate that level of movement skill but didn't know how to fight then I could teach them how to fight effectively much more quickly than I could a typical untrained beginner. (Conversely if an instructor in that school was willing to share their knowledge with me, I bet I could pull out something of value which I could use to improve my game. I've found that lots of schools have lost essential elements of fighting training but still retain some valuable gems which can be applied effectively by someone who does understand how to fight.)

It's hard to tell much from "snapshots" like this. Most people will admit that Judoka have a pretty good foundation for fighting but if you look at videos of the kata they do (Nage No Kata, Ju No Kata, etc.) and see how stylized it looks, well, based on just that a lot of people would dismiss Judo pretty much out of hand.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Hanzou]

It's hard to tell much from "snapshots" like this. Most people will admit that Judoka have a pretty good foundation for fighting but if you look at videos of the kata they do (Nage No Kata, Ju No Kata, etc.) and see how stylized it looks, well, based on just that a lot of people would dismiss Judo pretty much out of hand.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

No you wouldn't, because it's pretty easy to find examples of Judo randori, and Judo being used in a self defense/fighting context.

Not so much the case with classical JJ.

 

[jobo]

Not really. The sleeve grips and collar chokes are extremely useful self defense skills picked up from utilizing the gi. I've been able to control people by simply using the sleeve grip.

That said, No-gi is also very good because it provides training in more universal grips, and buying a rash guard and some sweat pants/shorts is far cheaper than a Bjj gi.

i dont understand your point, you have a special uniform that you wear, at least sometimes for ma, that exactly the same as the people your criticising, for having a special uniform to train in.

all sports have a uniform either by rules or by practicality, commonly both

 

[lklawson]

Do you have any evidence of this beyond one of the grandmasters having a high rank in Judo? Judo randori works because there's no strikes or weapon use. I highly doubt that a Jujutsu that utilizes those things would utilize a randori similar to Judo.

You think there are no strikes in Judo randori? hahahahahahahaha

There's plenty of close-lining and "accidents." There's a whole meta-art of slipping in strikes that the ref will accept as normal contact. Some of my favorites are elbows and shoulders while turning in for a hip toss. And that's just when atemi is technically illegal, never mind if you find an instructor who actually teaches atemi and atemi waza.

Son, you really need to stop. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

 

[Hanzou]

i dont understand your point, you have a special uniform that you wear, at least sometimes for ma, that exactly the same as the people your criticising, for having a special uniform to train in.

all sports have a uniform either by rules or by practicality, commonly both

Except Classical JJ isn't a sport.

 

[jobo]

No you wouldn't, because it's pretty easy to find examples of Judo randori, and Judo being used in a self defense/fighting context.

Not so much the case with classical JJ.

have you considered that the rarity may be because not many people do it and those that do are middle aged and so less likely to be in the sort of places anyway

 

[Hanzou]

You think there are no strikes in Judo randori? hahahahahahahaha

There's plenty of close-lining and "accidents." There's a whole meta-art of slipping in strikes that the ref will accept as normal contact. Some of my favorites are elbows and shoulders while turning in for a hip toss. And that's just when atemi is technically illegal, never mind if you find an instructor who actually teaches atemi and atemi waza.

Son, you really need to stop. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt."

So the fact that you sneak in strikes either under the nose of a ref, or because your instructor wants to teach dirty stuff, or because you want to show how much of a bada$$ you are means that Judo randori has strikes? That's no different than me jamming my elbow into the neck of my partner when I enter side control or head butt someone when I go in for an ezekiel choke while in mount. Me being an *** to my training partner or a dirty competitor doesn't mean that Bjj or Judo contains strikes when rolling/randori.

 

[jobo]

Except Classical JJ isn't a sport.

well that really demands that you give a commonly accepted definition of sport that excludes it

 

[lklawson]

What do you mean by a direct connection to arts used in war?

Like Boxing and Judo?

JNC: Boxing for Beginners: Jacomb

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

No you wouldn't, because it's pretty easy to find examples of Judo randori, and Judo being used in a self defense/fighting context.

Not so much the case with classical JJ.

Quiet son. Go sit down, the grown-ups are talking.

 

[lklawson]

So the fact that you sneak in strikes either under the nose of a ref, or because your instructor wants to teach dirty stuff, or because you want to show how much of a bada$$ you are means that Judo randori has strikes? That's no different than me jamming my elbow into the neck of my partner when I enter side control or head butt someone when I go in for an ezekiel choke while in mount. Me being an *** to my training partner or a dirty competitor doesn't mean that Bjj or Judo contains strikes when rolling/randori.

No. It means that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Hanzou]

well that really demands that you give a commonly accepted definition of sport that excludes it

Classical JJ exponents would get pissy if you call what they do a sport.

 

[Hanzou]

No. It means that you don't know what you're talking about.

Says the guy who says there's strikes in Judo randori, and in the exact same sentence says they're illegal.....

 

[jobo]

Classical JJ exponents would get pissy if you call what they do a sport.

im not at this moment interested in your mind reading powers

really i want you to provided a commonly accepted definition of sport that backs up your claim the cjj is not a sport

 

[Hanzou]

im not at this moment interested in your mind reading powers

really i want you to provided a commonly accepted definition of sport that backs up your claim the cjj is not a sport

I would imagine it would be because they don't compete. It's rather difficult to be considered a sport if there's no competitive aspect.

 

[lklawson]

Says the guy who says there's strikes in Judo randori, and in the exact same sentence says they're illegal.....

And the fact that you don't understand it only proves that you don't know what you're talking about. That's the point. You are making pronouncements and blathering on about stuff that you have less than even a superficial understanding of.

Here's a hint. You watching some youtube videos about "Japanese ju jutsu" doesn't make you an expert on the topic any more than watching porn makes a virgin an expert on sex.

This is where you start bragging about your great exploits and conquests.