Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Hanzou]

i fear your missing the point, that there are poor schools is possibly true

It's not possibly true, it is true. In fact it's to the point now where if I was looking for a JJJ school to practice at, I would have a hard time finding a good one.

i want to know how you reached the conclusion that poor schools are "typical"

I didn't say poor, I said that they're charlatans. That doesn't necessarily mean that what they're teaching is "poor", it just means they aren't teaching actual Japanese JJ, yet they're claiming that they are.

jjj is particularly suited to fat people ,mostly small fat people, so thats not a fairway to judge

Yeah, typically if a grossly overweight people is teaching you a physical exercise, that means that the physical exercise they're doing isn't working very well.

 

[jobo]

It's not possibly true, it is true. In fact it's to the point now where if I was looking for a JJJ school to practice at, I would have a hard time finding a good one.



I didn't say poor, I said that they're charlatans. That doesn't necessarily mean that what they're teaching is "poor", it just means they aren't teaching actual Japanese JJ, yet they're claiming that they are.



Yeah, typically if a grossly overweight people is teaching you a physical exercise, that means that the physical exercise they're doing isn't working very well.

so if they teach an updated and improve version this makes them charlatans

really? you dam tma for not modernising, then call those that do charlatans, that double jeopardy

both jjj and judo favour the fuller figure, if your fat and want to learn a ma, id recommend both or either,

 

[Hanzou]

None of that is true. Wrestling is still a major sport in the U.S., in both Primary School and College. Judo is still a major martial art and clubs can be found all over the place. There are 3 or 5 clubs within driving distance of me, and that's after two of them merged some years ago. Both Judo and Wrestling are considered strong grappling bases for MMA players to start from as one of their base arts.

As a base for MMA, Wrestling yes, Judo, no.

As for "tooling" Judoka, well... I guess it depends on what "back in the day" means. When Tani and Uyenishi were brought to the West by Barton-Wright, they both "tooled" much larger and stronger wrestlers with boring regularity. Perhaps you're referring to the more recent changes of a few years ago when the Single-Leg was essentially banned from Judo shiai?

The single leg and the double leg.

In any case, none of the arts referenced have "replaced" any of the other arts. Each still have their niche and their devoted followers.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Again, the situation is different because Brazilian Jiujitsu shares the name with the older Japanese systems. That's going to cause the more popular variant to blanket the others.

 

[Hanzou]

so if they teach an updated and improve version this makes them charlatans

If you claim that you're teaching old school JJJ, then yes, you're a charlatan if you're not teaching what you're claiming.

really? you dam tma for not modernising, then call those that do charlatans, that double jeopardy

Yeah, those are two completely different arguments.

 

[lklawson]

As a base for MMA, Wrestling yes, Judo, no.

Wait, what? You think that MMA players don't consider Judo a decent base grappling art to grow into MMA from? WTF? Have you never heard of Ronda Rousey? Or Khabib Nurmagomedov? Or any of the, literally, dozens and dozens of others?

Sheesh. I don't think I can take you seriously in this thread.

 

[Hanzou]

Wait, what? You think that MMA players don't consider Judo a decent base grappling art to grow into MMA from? WTF? Have you never heard of Ronda Rousey? Or Khabib Nurmagomedov? Or any of the, literally, dozens and dozens of others?

Sheesh. I don't think I can take you seriously in this thread.

You think Judo is Khabib's base? That's funny.

Rousey's base was definitely Judo, but that's really the only one who made any major impact in MMA. The issue with Judo is that the grips have to be adjusted to deal with an opponent not wearing a jacket. Bjj has No-Gi, so many Bjj players can slide right into MMA without much adjustment needed. Judokas don't have that basis to work off of.

Now, this isn't to say that Judo is USELESS for MMA. There's some great Judo throws that can work for the MMA format (if you adjust the grips). However, as a base, you're better off with wrestling or BJJ.

Btw, that’s also part of the reason Bjj practitioners looking to improve their standing grappling tend to prefer wrestling over Judo.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think you're looking at this from a perspective of someone who practiced a JJJ (though Hatsumi's claims are disputed by certain folks)

I assume you’re talking about my time in the Bujinkan, but I also spent a few years training a Danzan-Ryu offshoot. Danzan-Ryu is a hybrid art created by a Japanese expatriate living in Hawaii. Is it a Japanese Jujutsu, an American Jujutsu, a Japanese-American Jujutsu? I don’t know that the label is that important.

If you're under 25 and you're looking to study Jiujitsu, you're simply WAY more likely to wind up in a Bjj school than a JJJ school. That chance has exponentially increased over the last 30 years. If I type in Jujutsu in a google search, the first thing that pops up is Bjj. If I do a google maps search for a Jujutsu martial arts school, the majority is going to be Bjj. I think that's the case even in Japanese cities. If I'm around my friends or listening to Joe Rogan and they're talking about Jujitsu, they're talking about Bjj.

Yeah, right now BJJ is pretty popular, especially compared to other jujutsu forms. But these things go in waves. We’ll see how it is 10-20 years down the road. My biggest concern is the increasing number of BJJ schools which train only for groundfighting competition and never have students learning how to defend a punch. If that becomes the norm, then I think the art will lose popularity among those who want to learn how to fight and defend themselves.

What's worse is that if you do happen to run across a JJJ school, the quality of that school is suspect because there's a lot of charlatans out there who say that they're doing Japanese Jiujitsu. I've already heard some folks call JJJ "fake" and BJJ "real jiujitsu". Something I find incredibly ironic and hilarious, but I can see the basis for that belief.

Eh, I don’t know that I would put it that way (except as much as martial arts in general have a lot of under qualified instructors with inflated ranks and resumés). Yeah, if you consider JJJ to be a term which should o le be applied to arts which were created , in their current form, in Japan, then your options are limited. You’ve got the koryu arts, which deliberately limit their memberships. You’ve got Judo, Aikido, and portions of the Takamatsuden arts, which don’t usually brand themselves as jujutsu. You’ve got maybe a small handful of gendai arts which never achieved mass popularity but managed to maintain some existence (like the Nihon Goshin Aikido that gpseymour practices). You have Wado Ryu Karate which was originally intended to be an even blend of karate and jujutsu, although the jujutsu portion of the name was eventually dropped.

But for those who are not history pedants, claiming “Japanese” as a descriptor for their jujutsu is really just a matter of branding or perceived heritage, not an indicator of fraud. Heck, Helio Gracie for many years publicly insisted that he was teaching the true historical Samurai art of Japanese Jujutsu, unlike his competitors. Most arts practiced worldwide under the jujutsu moniker have, like BJJ, evolved from Japanese origins according to local needs and with influences added from whatever other arts and experiences that instructors had along the way. The differences in quality, I think, come down to the quantity and quality of fighting and competition experience that practitioners and instructors gathered along the way. BJJ started out with an unranked student who had no more than two years of Judo training presenting himself as a master of JJJ. Through generations of many, many practitioners getting in lots of fights and competitions, the art became something remarkable. Who’s to say that today’s “Billy-Bob Jujutsu”, founded by someone with a couple of years of Judo and Karate might not reach the same pinnacle.

 

[jobo]

If you claim that you're teaching old school JJJ, then yes, you're a charlatan if you're not teaching what you're claiming.



Yeah, those are two completely different arguments.

are they all claiming that specifically or is this just your habbit of keep making up

the term old school, trad, original etc are meaningless, they imply rather than state,

i went in to a pub that termed its self a tradition inn, i didnt call them charalatans coz they had electricity a microwave and running water
clearly the tradtion they had in mind was after the turn of the 20 century

 

[lklawson]

i went in to a pub that termed its self a tradition inn, i didnt call them charalatans coz they had electricity a microwave and running water
clearly the tradtion they had in mind was after the turn of the 20 century

Did they serve Flip? I'd enjoy finding a pub that serves Flip. But if they're post-20th, probably not.

 

[Hanzou]

I assume you’re talking about my time in the Bujinkan, but I also spent a few years training a Danzan-Ryu offshoot. Danzan-Ryu is a hybrid art created by a Japanese expatriate living in Hawaii. Is it a Japanese Jujutsu, an American Jujutsu, a Japanese-American Jujutsu? I don’t know that the label is that important.

It would be American, since the founder founded the style in America, and used a large amount of Western influences like boxing and western wrestling. It is a Gendai Jujutsu just like Bjj. However unlike Bjj, it never took hold in Japan the way Bjj currently is.

Yeah, right now BJJ is pretty popular, especially compared to other jujutsu forms. But these things go in waves. We’ll see how it is 10-20 years down the road. My biggest concern is the increasing number of BJJ schools which train only for groundfighting competition and never have students learning how to defend a punch. If that becomes the norm, then I think the art will lose popularity among those who want to learn how to fight and defend themselves.

We'll there's a difference between the driving force of Bjj's popularity, and the popularity waves of previous martial arts. Before the first UFC, the martial art "fad" was typically driven by films and television. The Kung Fu craze largely came from Bruce Lee. The Karate craze largely came from the Karate Kid and/or Chuck Norris. The Ninja craze came from various Ninja movies in the 80s. The kickboxing craze came from Jean Claude Van Damme films. The Aikido craze came from Steven Segal movies in the early 90s.

This Bjj wave isn't driven by that, it's driven by perceived effectiveness of the system itself. That perception hasn't really changed in almost three decades, and thanks to Bjj's rather fluid system of reinventing itself, I don't see that really changing in the foreseeable future. I, like you were concerned about the direction that sport Bjj was taking the art, but I think Danaher really dispelled those fears due to merging the ridiculous stuff like butt scooting and berimbolos with leg locks and open guard sweeps.

The top guy in sport Bjj currently is Gordon Ryan, and he has ambitions to go MMA within the next year or so. If not for that closeness of Sport Bjj and MMA I would be concerned, but as I've said many times, MMA keeps Sport Bjj honest, and never allows it to go too far off the pasture.

Eh, I don’t know that I would put it that way (except as much as martial arts in general have a lot of under qualified instructors with inflated ranks and resumés). Yeah, if you consider JJJ to be a term which should o le be applied to arts which were created , in their current form, in Japan, then your options are limited. You’ve got the koryu arts, which deliberately limit their memberships. You’ve got Judo, Aikido, and portions of the Takamatsuden arts, which don’t usually brand themselves as jujutsu. You’ve got maybe a small handful of gendai arts which never achieved mass popularity but managed to maintain some existence (like the Nihon Goshin Aikido that gpseymour practices). You have Wado Ryu Karate which was originally intended to be an even blend of karate and jujutsu, although the jujutsu portion of the name was eventually dropped.

But for those who are not history pedants, claiming “Japanese” as a descriptor for their jujutsu is really just a matter of branding or perceived heritage, not an indicator of fraud. Heck, Helio Gracie for many years publicly insisted that he was teaching the true historical Samurai art of Japanese Jujutsu, unlike his competitors. Most arts practiced worldwide under the jujutsu moniker have, like BJJ, evolved from Japanese origins according to local needs and with influences added from whatever other arts and experiences that instructors had along the way. The differences in quality, I think, come down to the quantity and quality of fighting and competition experience that practitioners and instructors gathered along the way. BJJ started out with an unranked student who had no more than two years of Judo training presenting himself as a master of JJJ. Through generations of many, many practitioners getting in lots of fights and competitions, the art became something remarkable. Who’s to say that today’s “Billy-Bob Jujutsu”, founded by someone with a couple of years of Judo and Karate might not reach the same pinnacle.

Well keep in mind, I'm limiting this to just "Jujutsu", not Aikido, Judo, or Karate. Again, if you're constantly hearing that "Jujitsu" is effective, you're going to seek out something with "Jujitsu" in the title, and you're going to bypass anything that doesn't have jujutsu/jiujitsu in its title. So once again, what happens when you go through the jujutsu options in your area and they simply don't measure up to Bjj?

During the course of this conversation, I took the liberty of going through some "traditional" Japanese Jujitsu schools in some major US cities. The results (to be kind) weren't very encouraging.

We also have to consider WHY the other Gendai jujitsus never gained the level of popularity that Bjj has achieved, even in Japan. It comes down to the effectiveness of the system, and while there is a chance that in the future another system will come along and replace it, Bjj is going to continue to grow until that happens.

 

[jobo]

It would be American, since the founder founded the style in America, and used a large amount of Western influences like boxing and western wrestling. It is a Gendai Jujutsu just like Bjj. However unlike Bjj, it never took hold in Japan the way Bjj currently is.



We'll there's a difference between the driving force of Bjj's popularity, and the popularity waves of previous martial arts. Before the first UFC, the martial art "fad" was typically driven by films and television. The Kung Fu craze largely came from Bruce Lee. The Karate craze largely came from the Karate Kid and/or Chuck Norris. The Ninja craze came from various Ninja movies in the 80s. The kickboxing craze came from Jean Claude Van Damme films. The Aikido craze came from Steven Segal movies in the early 90s.

This Bjj wave isn't driven by that, it's driven by perceived effectiveness of the system itself. That perception hasn't really changed in almost three decades, and thanks to Bjj's rather fluid system of reinventing itself, I don't see that really changing in the foreseeable future. I, like you were concerned about the direction that sport Bjj was taking the art, but I think Danaher really dispelled those fears due to merging the ridiculous stuff like butt scooting and berimbolos with leg locks and open guard sweeps.

The top guy in sport Bjj currently is Gordon Ryan, and he has ambitions to go MMA within the next year or so. If not for that closeness of Sport Bjj and MMA I would be concerned, but as I've said many times, MMA keeps Sport Bjj honest, and never allows it to go too far off the pasture.



Well keep in mind, I'm limiting this to just "Jujutsu", not Aikido, Judo, or Karate. Again, if you're constantly hearing that "Jujitsu" is effective, you're going to seek out something with "Jujitsu" in the title, and you're going to bypass anything that doesn't have jujutsu/jiujitsu in its title. So once again, what happens when you go through the jujutsu options in your area and they simply don't measure up to Bjj?

During the course of this conversation, I took the liberty of going through some "traditional" Japanese Jujitsu schools in some major US cities. The results (to be kind) weren't very encouraging.

We also have to consider WHY the other Gendai jujitsus never gained the level of popularity that Bjj has achieved, even in Japan. It comes down to the effectiveness of the system, and while there is a chance that in the future another system will come along and replace it, Bjj is going to continue to grow until that happens.

in this country the awarness in the general population of bjj is practically nil, may be a few brain dead mma fans, have heard of it, but mma as a sport is fringe at best, so not many and towards the younger end .

the general awarness of other ma is far higher, everyone has heard of karate, judo boxing kung fu,

so your whole premise is flawed, at least this side of the pond, i doubt its much different over there

 

[lklawson]

in this country the awarness in the general population of bjj is practically nil, may be a few brain dead mma fans, have heard of it, but mma as a sport is fringe at best, so not many and towards the younger end .

the general awarness of other ma is far higher, everyone has heard of karate, judo boxing kung fu,

so your whole premise is flawed, at least this side of the pond, i doubt its much different over there

It depends on which population you're looking at. My experience is that the general population, with little experience in any Oriental Martial Art at all, doesn't have any specific awareness of BJJ as opposed to JJJ and seldom knows the difference between BJJ, Karate, and Tae Kwon Do.

The more narrow the sub-set of the populations become, the more likely they are to be aware of, or even very aware of BJJ specifically, and how it differs from others. These subsets are often:

• Police
• Military
• Oriental style Martial Artists
• Firearms For Self Defense "martial artists"
  
• MMA fans (who may or may not actually train in anything)
• Joe Rogan fans (particularly his podcast fans)

There are a few others, but generally speaking, Joe Sixpack off the street neither knows, nor cares, about something called "Brazilian Ju Jitusu" or how it may be any different at all from Tai Chi.

 

[jobo]

It depends on which population you're looking at. My experience is that the general population, with little experience in any Oriental Martial Art at all, doesn't have any specific awareness of BJJ as opposed to JJJ and seldom knows the difference between BJJ, Karate, and Tae Kwon Do.

The more narrow the sub-set of the populations become, the more likely they are to be aware of, or even very aware of BJJ specifically, and how it differs from others. These subsets are often:

• Police
• Military
• Oriental style Martial Artists
• Firearms For Self Defense "martial artists"
  
• MMA fans (who may or may not actually train in anything)
• Joe Rogan fans (particularly his podcast fans)

There are a few others, but generally speaking, Joe Sixpack off the street neither knows, nor cares, about something called "Brazilian Ju Jitusu" or how it may be any different at all from Tai Chi.

cant disagree

but as i said mma as a spec tator sports is fringe over here and joe rogan even more so, cant speak for the rest,possibly, but thats a very small % of the population

 

[Hanzou]

in this country the awarness in the general population of bjj is practically nil, may be a few brain dead mma fans, have heard of it, but mma as a sport is fringe at best, so not many and towards the younger end .

Really? I looked up Bjj in Manchester and there's over 20 of gyms and schools that teach Bjj in that area alone.

the general awarness of other ma is far higher, everyone has heard of karate, judo boxing kung fu,

I didn't count the others, but there was less Kung fu in that same area.

so your whole premise is flawed, at least this side of the pond, i doubt its much different over there

Okay.

 

[jobo]

Really? I looked up Bjj in Manchester and there's over 20 of gyms and schools that teach Bjj in that area alone.



I didn't count the others, but there was less Kung fu in that same area.



Okay.

im sure there are but thats serving a popululation of of half a million , if its confined to manchester city , 2.5 million if the catchment area is greater manchester

so how does that show the general population of Manchester has an awareness of bjj?

nb im not really from manchester, i live in a bigish city next door that no one in america has heard of, unless their fans of the smiths

 

[lklawson]

cant disagree

but as i said mma as a spec tator sports is fringe over here and joe rogan even more so, cant speak for the rest,possibly, but thats a very small % of the population

MMA as a spectator sport seems to have more mind-share/market penetration than Collegiate Wrestling but less than Boxing. It's televised on sports channels, of course. I have friends who never trained a day of martial arts who are, nonetheless, MMA "fans." But they're pretty rare.

I agree with you that the average person has no clue what BJJ is.

 

[Hanzou]

im sure there are but thats serving a popululation of of half a million , if its manchester city , 2.5 million if its greater manchester youve googled

so how does that show the general population of Manchester has an awareness of bjj?

I simply googled Bjj in Manchester UK, and I got a map covered with big and small red dots and several locations that teach it. Not bad for a place where (according to you) Bjj is practically unknown.

 

[jobo]

I simply googled Bjj in Manchester UK, and I got a map covered with big and small red dots and several locations that teach it. Not bad for a place where (according to you) Bjj is practically unknown.

youve clearly not done the maths, 20 schools for a catchment area running into the millions is not a popular past time, there are more chess clubs than that.

non of which answers my question of how this means the general poulation is aware of bjj

 

[Hanzou]

youve clearly not done the maths, 20 schools for a catchment area running into the millions is not a popular past time, there are more chess clubs than that.

non of which answers my question of how this means the general poulation is aware of bjj

I wasn't aware that there was an equation that measured general awareness with the number of schools available in a general area. Please share.

In the meantime, it's safe to say that if there's several schools in a single city, then there is awareness in that area. How much? I don't know, but it's definitely higher than "nil".

 

[jobo]

I wasn't aware that there was an equation that measured general awareness with the number of schools available in a general area. Please share.

In the meantime, it's safe to say that if there's several schools in a single city, then there is awareness in that area. How much? I don't know, but it's definitely higher than "nil".

there not, thats what i cant belive youve posted the number of schools to show that there is awareness

lets be generous and say the numbers temrained by those schools in a week equals a thousand ,

thats 0.04 of the population, , i said close to nil and thats pretty close to nil