Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

[Chris Parker]

And that's all fine... what I'm saying is to not apply your values to an approach that doesn't match them or need them... after all, we don't apply our approaches and values to BJJ, or karate, or TKD, or anything else. You can value what you want, and really, more power to you on that... but it's just stopping you from actually getting any clue in this context. Which is the point... koryu and BJJ aren't competing with each other, as they are very far apart, and don't compete in the same arena... so there's no "replacing" of anything... which is the real thrust of this thread. Insisting they do is where the disconnect comes in.

 

[jobo]

And that's all fine... what I'm saying is to not apply your values to an approach that doesn't match them or need them... after all, we don't apply our approaches and values to BJJ, or karate, or TKD, or anything else. You can value what you want, and really, more power to you on that... but it's just stopping you from actually getting any clue in this context. Which is the point... koryu and BJJ aren't competing with each other, as they are very far apart, and don't compete in the same arena... so there's no "replacing" of anything... which is the real thrust of this thread. Insisting they do is where the disconnect comes in.

but its my life and my values, and probebly the values of most other people that they want the skills to wotk, ie performance rather than authenticity

schools which are selling authenticity as relating to performance are indulging in sharp practise, to fool a gullable public into partibg with their cash, which was the point i made that you took issue with, as it affected your sense of self justification

 

[Chris Parker]

Sigh.........

Which is fine... and that's a part of why BJJ is popular... but applying those same values to classical arts is to thoroughly miss the point. I think I've said this some two dozen times now?

Dude. This is a thread about the relative popularity of both approaches. My point is that they are different, with different value sets and criteria/metrics... so to apply a single set to both is to fundamentally not have a clue what you're talking about or how to actually relate to them.

Can
You
Get
That
Yet?

 

[jobo]

Sigh.........

Which is fine... and that's a part of why BJJ is popular... but applying those same values to classical arts is to thoroughly miss the point. I think I've said this some two dozen times now?

Dude. This is a thread about the relative popularity of both approaches. My point is that they are different, with different value sets and criteria/metrics... so to apply a single set to both is to fundamentally not have a clue what you're talking about or how to actually relate to them.

Can
You
Get
That
Yet?

well no, they arnt, or rather not for the majority, a quick survey of people doing a tma class of why they do a tma class is likeky to give a number of reasons, self defence, fitness, wellness, de-stressing

all of which are objective measures of performance,

i doubt that many responces will be " i wish to keep an obsolete culture alive

now there are people like that i give you, they weave their own baskets brew beer in the bath tube, go snd live in the,woods and live of berries, but they are out lyers, they really are.

you possibly fooled into thinking its moore common, as like attracts like, you suround your self with other out lyers and then convince your self its " normal" and every obe else is doibg it wrong

though lambasting people who wish to live in the 21 century is particulat to ma, you just dont get basket weavers doing it

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, you're really not getting it.

No-one ever said that classical arts were for everybody... or even for the majority. We're very clear on that. And yes, maintaining/preserving the culture is a big part of why many of us study classical systems... your ridiculous characterisation not-withstanding (frankly, we expect people to be far more serious and down to earth than the more "performance" based systems).

And I'm not "lambasting" anyone for having their own values... just for trying to force them onto concepts where they have no place.

Seriously, do I need to say it another dozen times?

 

[Hanzou]

The same argument would suggest that McDonalds has more "clout" and "influence" on the cuisine and culinary culture of a city than the Michelin Star restaurants... even though there's on one or two of them, and three dozen McD's in the city...

This assumes that Classical JJ systems are fine cuisine while modern systems are fast food. In actuality, a better analogy would be that it's all fast food, with classical systems being that fast food shack you find in a random small town with questionable quality versus McDonalds which is found all over the world that you can sue if you get sick from an undercook fish sandwich. In that proper comparison, fast food is immediately associated with McDonald's due to its dominance on the fast food landscape. I'm arguing that Bjj is doing the exact same thing with Jiujitsu. Sure, Sal's Burger and Fries will always be on its tiny corner on the south side of Memphis, but if I'm driving through Tennessee and want a fast food burger, I'm more than likely stopping at McDonald's.

Oh, and for the record, 25 students would be huge for a classical jujutsu school... you're really applying a very inaccurate and, honestly, meaningless metric here.

Yes, there are classical jujutsu schools that constantly teeter on the edge of extinction. Interesting that you consider this a good thing.

And what makes you think Classical Japanese jujutsu systems operate "in the same sphere" as BJJ?

Because the people seeking out those systems are more than likely seeking them out for self defense and fighting purposes. Obviously some aren't, but many are, like that guy in the article I posted.

Er.... what on earth does that have to do with the topic? Non-Japanese non-traditional "in name only" "Jujitsu" schools have no bearing on the idea of actual Japanese jujutsu systems... so why are you bringing them up?

No, we have no need to take them into account at all. They aren't even a part of the topic.

Because people seeking out classical Jujitsu study tend to run across schools like that before ever running across a legitimate JJJ dojo, which leads to the perception that JJJ is ineffective for self defense/fighting purposes. That in turn, pushes even more people into Bjj because it's viewed as a safe bet.

I'll be blunt here.

Your idea of "up to standard" means exactly nothing. You don't know what the standards or metrics are.

I'll be blunt as well; There's a difference between a martial art designed for self defense and fighting, and a martial art designed to play dress up on the weekends. Part of the reason classical martial arts as a whole are on the decline is because they want to be the latter instead of the former.

Why? Why should he? And what does it matter if generic 20 year olds in random worldwide locations (where there is not likely to be anything like actual traditional Japanese jujutsu around anyway) would end up in BJJ? If someone is after BJJ, they're not often going to be happy in a classical school... and people who appreciate classical schools tend to not be overly interested in BJJ... those that are, however, tend to come from a far more educated standpoint than the other way round, as they understand the structure of martial arts, the lessons, and more, to a much greater degree... and tend to use BJJ only as a way to understand their own art more. It's why I trained in it, after all.

The idea that people choose JJJ over BJJ because they're more "educated" is laughable. People choose classical martial arts over BJJ for a host of reasons. I'll be blunt again; One of the reasons someone would go to a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school is because they're afraid of rolling with people larger than themselves, or getting embarrassed by being choked out by someone smaller than themselves. When they do grow the stones to pop into a Bjj gym and put their "black belt" to the test, they get completely outclassed by a junior white belt and they walk (or run) out of the gym never to be seen again. Again, some people want to learn how to defend themselves, other want to pretend like they're living in 17th century Japan. Your mileage may vary.

Same thing... you're applying values that have no real meaning here. No, we absolutely do NOT need to "view martial arts as a sport"... to do so is to get them fundamentally wrong, at least in this context. And authenticity is the seal of quality in regards to classical systems. I get it, this is outside your experience... that's fine. But it's also the reality, so I heartily suggest you don't try to dictate your limited understanding on what is actually done by others.

Except the majority of people taking Bjj are doing it for self defense, not the competitive side of it. Which I'm willing to bet (Self defense) is the main reason the majority of people take up martial arts period, including classical jujutsu.

I'm also well aware of authenticity being a major concern among traditional jujutsu folks. It's a major concern among Bjj practitioners as well. Heck, I'm willing to bet (again) that the majority of people taking up MA are quite concerned about whether or not they're learning from a qualified/authentic instructor.

See? Our values aren't much different than yours.

No, it's not. And performance is always contextually dependent. What does "performance" mean in a classical system of dealing with an armoured and armed opponent using archaic weaponry? What does it mean when dealing with social conventions and constructs found in the 16th Century in Japan? Do you get what classical systems are about now?

Again though, the vast majority of people take up martial arts for self defense and fitness. A tiny (and ever shrinking) minority take it up to pretend to be Samurai and revel in cultural preservation of a culture they don't belong to. So yes, "performance" is going to align similarly for the vast majority of MA practitioners out there, which again explains why Bjj is as popular as it is, and becoming even more popular as time goes on.

Who cares? The classical arts don't.

You speak for all classical arts? Interesting.

Yeah... that won't cut it. I mean... you're telling us to look up Japanese jujutsu... if I do that, I know what is and isn't Japanese jujutsu, so... I know what I'll find. If someone with no clue does, and finds a bunch of cobbled together Western creations? Well... yeah? And? It's not Japanese jujutsu then, by definition, despite what they label themselves as, so what does it matter?

I've already explained this.

So your argument is that these earlier "trends" were based in popular culture, imagery, marketing, and capturing the attention, imagination, and fantasy of the public, but that BJJ's isn't?

Those earlier trends lasted 3-5 years. The Bjj "trend" has lasted almost 30 years. So no it isn't just popular culture, imagery, marketing, etc. that drives its popularity (though those are part of it). The difference is that those earlier crazes were largely based on fantasy with nothing backing them up. The Ninja trend for example was largely based on action movies where you had actors doing Ninja stuff. That in turn led to a flood of ninjutsu schools with not a whole lot of quality behind them.

Bjj on the other hand got popular through a NHB bout where a smaller fighter bested a string of fighters who were larger than he was. There was a reality behind it, and 30 years later, that reality is still in place. Like I said to Tony, the Bjj "trend" doesn't end until someone dojo storms a Bjj gym and wrecks the entire class the way Bjj did back in the day.

That fact is why you’re seeing Bjj, an American martial art, penetrate other countries on the level it has, including Japan.

 

[O'Malley]

Hanzou, on what knowledge/experience of classical jujutsu do you base your reasoning?

Because so far, most of what you said just misses the point, you just seem to make up stuff about classical arts to make BJJ look good for whatever reason.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, on what knowledge/experience of classical jujutsu do you base your reasoning?

Because so far, most of what you said just misses the point, you just seem to make up stuff about classical arts to make BJJ look good for whatever reason.

What items would you say I’m “making up”?

 

[Chris Parker]

What items would you say I’m “making up”?

Well, let's cover that as we go...

This assumes that Classical JJ systems are fine cuisine while modern systems are fast food. In actuality, a better analogy would be that it's all fast food, with classical systems being that fast food shack you find in a random small town with questionable quality versus McDonalds which is found all over the world that you can sue if you get sick from an undercook fish sandwich.

No, my analogy is correct... yours is, to be frank, deeply ignorant of the situation.

Look, I thought about the idea of fast food versus a more local, specialised burger place... I thought the idea of equating something like BJJ to McDonalds (or similar) was potentially doing it a dis-service... but, the more I thought about it, the more it became obvious that this was really the only way to look at the difference with any real sense of the real separation between them.

To be clear, I'm not using the McDonalds analogy to imply the "McDojo" label (one that, honestly, is more apt here than is realised, and is often used to imply things that aren't necessarily present in the real idea of a McDojo as was initially conceived... such as the idea that a McDojo is automatically lower quality in instruction... it may be, but is not definitively accurate). Instead, I'm using the analogy as a way to indicate the spread of the art, and it's ubiquitousness in the current martial arts landscape. As you've noted, BJJ schools are everywhere... and, like McDonalds, you can go to one pretty much anywhere and get slight variations, but still be fairly confident of what you're going to get.

By contrast, classical jujutsu systems are most commonly one-off's... possibly with a few locations... they are a far more specialised offering, but with the highest of quality control (again, you really need to get what that means in this context, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of as "quality"), and a unique mixture of "flavours" that set that particular school apart from everything else everywhere. There is no better food analogy to that than a Michelin Star restaurant... most commonly single, or only a few locations for each... not "franchised out", certainly not found in multiple locations in each city around the world... and what you get in one is unique to the chef behind the restaurant itself. It is a unique menu, a unique set of flavours, drawn from a particular culture and approach that you simply won't find elsewhere.

The idea that it is the same, or even close, to a "fast food shack" is laughable... and your insistence of "questionable quality" is just sad. This is what O'Malley was meaning when he said you insist on making things up without any real basis... among other things... so you know... Michelin Star restaurants maintain their quality by having few locations, and maintaining the control over their menu, atmosphere, decor, setting, location, and so on... to a great degree, they also control their clientele... which again puts this in the same realm as Classical Japanese arts. Not everyone can get in... reservations/entry are limited and rare... it's up to the restaurant if you get a seat in many cases... and, honestly, not everyone even wants to eat at a Michelin Star restaurant. Some will think their overly stuffy... pretentious... gauche... too expensive... or simply not to their taste. And that's the same with classical systems. BJJ, on the other hand, is good for appealing to a wider clientele. Classical arts don't need, or want that.

In that proper comparison, fast food is immediately associated with McDonald's due to its dominance on the fast food landscape. I'm arguing that Bjj is doing the exact same thing with Jiujitsu.

Leaving off that, as I just demonstrated, it's simply not a "proper" comparison, you've kinda restated my point there. Yes, BJJ has done a great job of spreading itself out through the world... hats off to them... that's what makes them the "McDonalds" of the current martial art scene. Classical systems don't want to do that. Really, BJJ is not competing against classical jujutsu... we're not even in the same arena. It'd be like saying that Keeping Up With The Kardashians is taking an audience away from art galleries.

Sure, Sal's Burger and Fries will always be on its tiny corner on the south side of Memphis, but if I'm driving through Tennessee and want a fast food burger, I'm more than likely stopping at McDonald's.

Yes, you are. Mainly as it suits your needs, you know what you're getting, and you know you're likely to find it. What's your point?

Yes, there are classical jujutsu schools that constantly teeter on the edge of extinction. Interesting that you consider this a good thing.

I wouldn't put it like that, but yeah, I do. Of course, and I know this has been said, as I've said it a few dozen times in this thread, but that's due to a completely different set of values to what you are used to. You don't have to understand it, but you do need to recognise that other values exist, and are applied in areas you simply don't have the experience or knowledge to comment on.

Because the people seeking out those systems are more than likely seeking them out for self defense and fighting purposes. Obviously some aren't, but many are, like that guy in the article I posted.

No, they're seeking an image they have in their head. If they actually find a classical system, they'll often find that it doesn't match it, so they won't stick around... and if they do, it's for many other reasons beyond fighting ability. And really, if you're after modern self defence, what good is a system that teaches you how to assassinate a friend/colleague by offering them tea....?

Araki Ryu (other versions of the first few techniques have you stab the other guy to death after throwing the tea in his face... real "self defence" stuff here...)

When it comes to the guy in the article, he had an idea of what he thought he was after... but when he saw how these systems were structured, he didn't like it... it didn't match his image... which is the reality. So no, people coming to a classical system aren't doing so due to desires of self defence and fighting as a foremost reason in the majority of cases.

Because people seeking out classical Jujitsu study tend to run across schools like that before ever running across a legitimate JJJ dojo, which leads to the perception that JJJ is ineffective for self defense/fighting purposes. That in turn, pushes even more people into Bjj because it's viewed as a safe bet.

It's lead to that perception in you, as you have been unable to discern the difference. Here's the thing, though... they aren't actual Japanese jujutsu... traditional or classical... or anything really close to it. So we don't really care what impression they give, as it's not an impression of us. You might as well say that people get the wrong idea about spy craft from watching James Bond... it's true, but doesn't affect the actual intelligence operatives...

And you really need to drop the idea of "effectiveness"... it's part of your marketing, not ours... so doesn't really bear relevance in terms of going one way or the other. To put it back in culinary terms, complaining that the vegetarian restaurant doesn't know how to prepare your steak isn't really a valid complaint... it's a matter of having the wrong expectations and values going in. If you want steak... don't go to a vegetarian restaurant.

I'll be blunt as well; There's a difference between a martial art designed for self defense and fighting, and a martial art designed to play dress up on the weekends. Part of the reason classical martial arts as a whole are on the decline is because they want to be the latter instead of the former.

Ooh, bluntness... fun.

Blunt time.

You have absolutely no clue. This is borderline insulting, and would be if I thought you even knew the first thing about what you are saying.

Classical arts are not on the decline.

"Playing dress ups" is not even a part of it.

You have literally no way of appreciating other people's values, do you?

The idea that people choose JJJ over BJJ because they're more "educated" is laughable.

Actually, no. It's an observable reality. Teachers of classical systems are far more interested in your level of education, your job stability and so on than what other arts you may have done... in fact, we'll reject students who don't measure up. In addition, due to the manner and method of such traditions, the deeper cultural implications and context, and far more, coupled with the need to be able to adopt a number of aspects of a foreign culture (language, manners, etiquette, thinking frameworks), then yeah... classical arts tend to attract more educated people. By design and by virtue of what they are.

People choose classical martial arts over BJJ for a host of reasons. I'll be blunt again; One of the reasons someone would go to a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school is because they're afraid of rolling with people larger than themselves, or getting embarrassed by being choked out by someone smaller than themselves.

Please. Get over yourself, yeah? The vast majority have backgrounds in arts like judo... in fact, it's considered a requisite in some schools... Ellis Amdur (who teaches a line of Araki Ryu, shown above) requires at least 6 months of serious grappling training (Judo, BJJ, wrestling) for any potential student, in addition to the other requirements... Sosuishi Ryu has had a strong relationship with Kodokan Judo since the Kodokan's inception, which continues to today... meaning a number of Sosuishi Ryu schools also teach judo alongside the classical arts... and frankly, some of the scariest training is found in classical arts... you really need to get over this bizarre idea that people who engage in systems without a competitive side are "afraid" of either competition or rolling/sparring. It's not the case, it's not supported at all by the reality of the practitioners (or the schools), and just makes you sound like an egotistical jerk. I'm sure you don't want that impression to come across, yeah?

When they do grow the stones to pop into a Bjj gym and put their "black belt" to the test, they get completely outclassed by a junior white belt and they walk (or run) out of the gym never to be seen again. Again, some people want to learn how to defend themselves, other want to pretend like they're living in 17th century Japan. Your mileage may vary.

HA!!!!!!!!!!

"Put their black belt to the test".....

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dude... what "black belt"? Does it come with a sho-mokuroku? Or do you have to wait until menkyo? Do you have any idea why this is funny?

Again, you're putting your values into a context where they simply don't fit or have any bearing. Do some classical art practitioners want to also address that side of training, and cross train in things like BJJ or judo? Yes. But more than not, it's to act as a supplement to their training, and is done with the idea of furthering their understanding of their primary art... so have no problem whatsoever in "letting go" of any ego to learn. It's what we do, really. But, it cannot be understated, most practitioners are already coming from such backgrounds... and are searching for more than the simple idea of "effectiveness" in a limited context.

Except the majority of people taking Bjj are doing it for self defense, not the competitive side of it. Which I'm willing to bet (Self defense) is the main reason the majority of people take up martial arts period, including classical jujutsu.

It's an oft-cited reason... however BJJ's "effectiveness in self defence" is demonstrated/marketed through it's competitive side... that's really where the reputation and image comes from. Claiming one context when really demonstrating another. Now, that's not an issue... the conflation of the two contexts into one image is not uncommon, nor is it poorly done. Is it incorrect, or misleading? Yeah, it is... but not in a way that is overly meaningful to most.

As far as Classical Japanese arts, while it's a sometimes (not: not oft)-cited reason, it's quickly apparent that it's a poor fit to most. So if that's really the primary motivator, most people don't stick around a classical tradition... yes, it can be utilised in self defence (in a way), depending on the system (I've heard accounts of people using Shindo Muso Ryu methods employing an evasion and jam using a broom handle against someone with a knife... but that's an outlier as an example), but that's not the primary applicable approach. Combat, yes, but combat within a context... and the real lesson is to do with the mentality than the physicality. After all, if you grew up listening to Led Zeppelin and Jimmy Hendrix, and wanted to play their music, specifically on guitar, but the only music teacher around taught tuba... well, you're going to get some transferable skills like understanding scales, motifs, reading music etc... but you certainly ain't gonna learn guitar that way. Or, a bit more accurately, the music teacher only taught harpsichord...

I'm also well aware of authenticity being a major concern among traditional jujutsu folks. It's a major concern among Bjj practitioners as well. Heck, I'm willing to bet (again) that the majority of people taking up MA are quite concerned about whether or not they're learning from a qualified/authentic instructor.

Sure. I said as much myself. Of course, the form that authenticity takes, how it manifests itself, and so on is rather different.

See? Our values aren't much different than yours.

When you show the first indication of understanding, or at least trying to understand the values of others, rather than just continually applying your own, I might believe that. Until then, as I actually do have experience in modern and classical systems, I think I'll go with my understanding of the differing value sets.

Again though, the vast majority of people take up martial arts for self defense and fitness.

That, I would dispute. As is often said, there are as many reasons for someone wanting to take up martial arts as there are people doing martial arts... whether they can express it as anything more than the simple reasons suggested is another thing, of course... and, it must be said, those two values are going to have a much higher rate of likelihood for people doing competitive systems... in other words... dude... your values are not applicable to classical traditions. They may factor for some people, but they are not, in the main, primary reasons.

A tiny (and ever shrinking) minority take it up to pretend to be Samurai and revel in cultural preservation of a culture they don't belong to. So yes, "performance" is going to align similarly for the vast majority of MA practitioners out there, which again explains why Bjj is as popular as it is, and becoming even more popular as time goes on.

Wow... okay, yeah, insulted now. "Pretend to be samurai"?!?! One of the reasons we tend to insist on more mature, educated, stable personalities to train with us to avoid such personalities who may want to do such things.

And you're still not understanding the differing contexts of "performance" here. I'm not denying that a popular system that is relatively prominent in it's presentation is going to match (mainly through shaping) the expectations of prospective students, and therefore be popular... that's kinda human nature 101 there... but here's a thing... do you remember before BJJ? Before the first UFC? Ground fighting was not overly thought of... why? Was it that it didn't work? That it was "ineffective"? That it didn't take skill? That it couldn't be demonstrated? No. It was more that the popular image of "fighting" was based in things like boxing, then (to a lesser degree) judo... where ground fighting was minimalised... so when the first UFC happened, and Royce was caught on the ground for 20 minutes with Ken Shamrock in the 5th UFC event, the audience booed... they were bored... as it wasn't what they had learnt to expect as "fighting". It took a while to get people to change their mind, and the Gracies' were phenomenal at that. Of course, that changed... but we'll cover that in a bit.

You speak for all classical arts? Interesting.

No, I am giving you some insight into the mentality of the classical arts, in as general a fashion as possible.

I've already explained this.

No, you haven't. The question is, if we are looking at the idea of classical/traditional Japanese jujutsu being "replaced", what do non-classical, non-traditional, non-Japanese pseudo-jujutsu systems have to do with the discussion? And saying that it's that what most people find means nothing... it doesn't suddenly actually make them relevant. Just... a distraction.

Those earlier trends lasted 3-5 years. The Bjj "trend" has lasted almost 30 years.

Well, that's wrong on a few counts.

Firstly, these trends tend to be more 10-15 years. In the 50's it was primarily Judo and Japanese/Okinawan karate, due to the US GI's learning as part of the occupying force. The 60's were dominated by karate, mostly sport and Korean variants (TKD), as it was the rise of the tournament scene. That gave rise to personalities, such as Chuck Norris, which naturally lead through to movies... and the rise of kung fu from the late 60's through the 70's. The movie scene then shifted again, birthing what was called the "ninja boom" of the late 70's through the 80's. This took us to the early 90's, which saw two main forms rise up to capture the imaginations of potential students. One was BJJ, through the Gracie's promotion and use of the UFC (really a brilliant marketing tool for them initially); the other was the rise of RBSD... however that was far more confronting, so BJJ, being safer and far less scary, won out. By the end of the 90's, though, and heading into the early 2000's, the Gracie's strategies kinda backfired with the UFC taking on it's own form, and promoting "real violence"... which had systems like Krav Maga and RBSD approaches come to the fore again. Through a shrewd business approach, by the mid-2000's, Dana White had salvaged the reputation and image of the UFC (with similar formats coming up and benefiting from this), which has lead to the major trend for the last decade or so... which is not BJJ. It's MMA. In fact, BJJ's "run" as a trend was basically from about 1993 to around 1998... what has kept it going has been the promotion of it as a staple of MMA training... not BJJ for it's own sake.

As you can see, the trends often run from one to the next... arts that are hugely popular at one point slow to a more steady simmer... for systems like BJJ, it's place as part of MMA training has kept it in good stead... but thinking it's been the top trend for 30 years is just denialism or delusion. Is it popular? Yes. As was TKD. And Judo. Do you see those going anywhere, even though no-one's making movies about TKD anymore? Nope. Did MMA kill off TKD? Nope. Did BJJ kill off Judo? Not at all. Are these arts still flavour of the month? Do you see where we're going with this?

So no it isn't just popular culture, imagery, marketing, etc. that drives its popularity (though those are part of it).

It really is. And if you don't see that, then you have no idea of how popularity and promotion works. Your'e just not recognising how that marketing was done, and how it worked...

The difference is that those earlier crazes were largely based on fantasy with nothing backing them up.

No, the difference is that they appealed to the values and mentality of the people at the time. Early "crazes" for Judo and karate were based on the exotic nature, as well as the effectiveness as applied by (dominantly) military servicemen who had also been trained in some of these methods. Coming out of a World War (and heading into the Korean conflict) had people wanting to feel safe... so it appealed to them then. After a while, escapism became more valued, so movies had more of an influence... and so on and so forth. As Tony said, it's all ebbs and flows... it'll swing back the other way at some point. Hell, it might be through this current global craziness we're going through now... coming out of it, people might not want to roll around on the ground with someone (pandemics can change behaviours that way, you know), so they'll look for other approaches... the next major trend might be weapon work, as it allows you to work from a distance... it might be Kendo and Iaido... the first is distanced, competitive, and you wear a mask.. the second is a solo exercise form (in the main), so you don't have to get close to anyone, but is less physically confronting (although I would say more mentally stressing and demanding). Or we could see Tai-Bo making a return, as people look for something martial-themed with more of a fitness element (again, health being a major concern coming out of a pandemic), that doesn't require someone two inches from your face. Time will tell.

The Ninja trend for example was largely based on action movies where you had actors doing Ninja stuff. That in turn led to a flood of ninjutsu schools with not a whole lot of quality behind them.

That's where it came from, yeah... of course, the "flood of ninja schools with not a whole lot of quality" I don't blame on the movies... I have other persons I lay that blame squarely at the feet of... but that's not something I'm going into detail on here.

Bjj on the other hand got popular through a NHB bout where a smaller fighter bested a string of fighters who were larger than he was.

That was an announcement... but it was not what changed people's minds. It was just the start of it. And, let's be very, very clear here... that whole thing was a marketing play by the Gracies. Pure and simple. It was set up to showcase their art, and worked well. Of course, people didn't get it at the time (as mentioned, complaining and booing at the length of "inaction" seen, not understanding why people were tapping out, and so on), but the Gracie's persisted, and eventually started to build their arts reputation. I will say that a number of their methods were... less than straight up. Taking out full page ads in entertainment magazines to challenge people who had absolutely nothing to gain, like Benny "The Jet" Urquidez... issuing a challenge to Mike Tyson (when he was in jail), and so on... dude... it was ALL publicity, image-making, propaganda, and marketing. The reason they took out ads in entertainment magazines? The same reason they held that first UFC... they were opening schools in the US, notably in LA and Hollywood, and wanted the publicity... so they took out ads and put on shows where people would see them. Not martial artists. The people.

There was a reality behind it, and 30 years later, that reality is still in place.

Please. There is no "reality" behind it. It's just a somewhat less-limited form of competition. There's just as much reality in a Judo competition... or a kendo match... or a point-karate tournament. It's just differing contexts, rulesets, and limitations. Anyone who thinks that equals "reality" has no clue.

Like I said to Tony, the Bjj "trend" doesn't end until someone dojo storms a Bjj gym and wrecks the entire class the way Bjj did back in the day.

No, it doesn't require that. Or, more accurately, it didn't require that. As I said, the BJJ "trend" is over. It has been for nearly 20 years. Is it still popular? Yep. So are a lot of former trends. But it's not the current trend. That's more MMA than anything else right now. All that's required for a trend to be superseded by another is for the second one to capture the people's imagination more. Which MMA did, taking over for BJJ, quite a while back... but, honestly, BJJ's push to be seen as "real", and "more realistic than other arts" was what really doomed it's trend... as that gave rise to even more "realistic" approaches... Krav Maga and RBSD. They were then taken over by MMA... which is just as much a spectator thing as a participant thing (you can't really be a spectator for Krav Maga and RBSD... they don't make good movies), allowing it to capture imagination back again.

Really, I don't think you get what a trend is.

That fact is why you’re seeing Bjj, an American martial art, penetrate other countries on the level it has, including Japan.

And no-one has disputed that. Hell, I've said multiple times that BJJ has been incredibly successful in spreading out to the world... but that's not the case you put forth. You put forth that BJJ was "replacing" traditional/Classical Japanese jujutsu... and it's not. They don't share the same sphere, they don't even breathe the same air. Both are just fine being what they are.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, let's cover that as we go...

No, my analogy is correct... yours is, to be frank, deeply ignorant of the situation.

Look, I thought about the idea of fast food versus a more local, specialised burger place... I thought the idea of equating something like BJJ to McDonalds (or similar) was potentially doing it a dis-service... but, the more I thought about it, the more it became obvious that this was really the only way to look at the difference with any real sense of the real separation between them.

To be clear, I'm not using the McDonalds analogy to imply the "McDojo" label (one that, honestly, is more apt here than is realised, and is often used to imply things that aren't necessarily present in the real idea of a McDojo as was initially conceived... such as the idea that a McDojo is automatically lower quality in instruction... it may be, but is not definitively accurate). Instead, I'm using the analogy as a way to indicate the spread of the art, and it's ubiquitousness in the current martial arts landscape. As you've noted, BJJ schools are everywhere... and, like McDonalds, you can go to one pretty much anywhere and get slight variations, but still be fairly confident of what you're going to get.

By contrast, classical jujutsu systems are most commonly one-off's... possibly with a few locations... they are a far more specialised offering, but with the highest of quality control (again, you really need to get what that means in this context, because it has absolutely nothing to do with what you think of as "quality"), and a unique mixture of "flavours" that set that particular school apart from everything else everywhere. There is no better food analogy to that than a Michelin Star restaurant... most commonly single, or only a few locations for each... not "franchised out", certainly not found in multiple locations in each city around the world... and what you get in one is unique to the chef behind the restaurant itself. It is a unique menu, a unique set of flavours, drawn from a particular culture and approach that you simply won't find elsewhere.

The idea that it is the same, or even close, to a "fast food shack" is laughable... and your insistence of "questionable quality" is just sad. This is what O'Malley was meaning when he said you insist on making things up without any real basis... among other things... so you know... Michelin Star restaurants maintain their quality by having few locations, and maintaining the control over their menu, atmosphere, decor, setting, location, and so on... to a great degree, they also control their clientele... which again puts this in the same realm as Classical Japanese arts. Not everyone can get in... reservations/entry are limited and rare... it's up to the restaurant if you get a seat in many cases... and, honestly, not everyone even wants to eat at a Michelin Star restaurant. Some will think their overly stuffy... pretentious... gauche... too expensive... or simply not to their taste. And that's the same with classical systems. BJJ, on the other hand, is good for appealing to a wider clientele. Classical arts don't need, or want that.

Yes, it sounds very much like Sal's Burger and Fries of Memphis Tennessee, or any string of those tiny burger joints off the interstates in the U.S. It's small, you only hear about them if someone tells you. They only allow a certain number of people inside because it's a literal shack and can't fit a large amount of people inside. They're broke so they can't afford a credit card machine (and they're trying to avoid the IRS) so it's cash only, so if you tend to only carry cards you're not getting served, etc. In the end though, you're still getting burger, fries, and a soda. Probably a delicious burger and fries, but still a burger and fries regardless. However, on the other hand, that delicious burger might get you sick as well, because while it was delicious going down, the quality of the cook in the kitchen is always suspect.

There's some folks who only seek out those types of places, since it gives them a taste of Americana. Others prefer the assurance that they're not going to die of intestinal poisoning, and choose the larger burger chains. When I was younger, I was more apt to try those smaller burger places. Sometimes I got sick, sometimes I got a delicious burger. Now that I'm older, I tend to avoid those types of places because I have no desire to spend my traveling time in a gas station bathroom.

No, they're seeking an image they have in their head. If they actually find a classical system, they'll often find that it doesn't match it, so they won't stick around... and if they do, it's for many other reasons beyond fighting ability. And really, if you're after modern self defence, what good is a system that teaches you how to assassinate a friend/colleague by offering them tea....?

You mean they're seeking a martial art to protect themselves and they find a martial art where they learn to have a tea party in traditional Japanese garb. Yes, I can see how that could be off-putting for someone.

Araki Ryu (other versions of the first few techniques have you stab the other guy to death after throwing the tea in his face... real "self defence" stuff here...)

Yes, I would qualify that under performance art instead of martial art.

When it comes to the guy in the article, he had an idea of what he thought he was after... but when he saw how these systems were structured, he didn't like it... it didn't match his image... which is the reality. So no, people coming to a classical system aren't doing so due to desires of self defence and fighting as a foremost reason in the majority of cases.

And how do you think that image appeared in his head? He heard that Jujitsu was an effective martial art, sought out the Japanese version of it, and got that video you posted above. Again, it should come as a shock to no one that he didn't like it. That said, on the other side of the coin, there are dojos claiming to teach JJJ and they're not legitimate schools, as was also mentioned in the article. So on one hand you have performance art, on the other you have potentially effective JJJ but the people running those dojos are of questionable quality, and then you have Bjj that has reliable quality, and by all accounts is an effective MA. Is it any wonder why Jujitsu is being attributed mainly to Bjj than the other arts who carry the name?

It's lead to that perception in you, as you have been unable to discern the difference. Here's the thing, though... they aren't actual Japanese jujutsu... traditional or classical... or anything really close to it. So we don't really care what impression they give, as it's not an impression of us. You might as well say that people get the wrong idea about spy craft from watching James Bond... it's true, but doesn't affect the actual intelligence operatives...

I realize YOU don't care, but what you care about really isn't the topic of discussion. The topic of discussion is people associating Jujitsu entirely with Bjj and nothing else. You may think it's not a big deal that people are slowly getting the idea that Japanese JJ is ineffective, but over time that viewpoint begins to stick, and people will avoid those types of schools entirely. Sure, I have no doubt that there will be some tiny places in Japan and elsewhere where you can continue to dress up as a samurai and pretend to live in the 16th century, just like people like to participate in Renaissance festivals and have jousting tournaments. However when it comes to the martial arts, and fighting arts in general, the consensus is rapidly becoming Jujitsu=Brazilian Jiu-jitsu.

Ooh, bluntness... fun.

Blunt time.

You have absolutely no clue. This is borderline insulting, and would be if I thought you even knew the first thing about what you are saying.

Classical arts are not on the decline.

"Playing dress ups" is not even a part of it.

You have literally no way of appreciating other people's values, do you?

Why is it insulting? That's exactly what you're doing, unless you're silly enough to believe that any of that stuff is practical from a self defense stand point. It's no different than those HEMA folks who swing around broadswords and spiked maces. Yeah, I dressed up as a Samurai for Halloween once because I thought it was cool, I suppose people like yourself never really grew out of that stage. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that, just please place what you're doing in the proper context.

Actually, no. It's an observable reality. Teachers of classical systems are far more interested in your level of education, your job stability and so on than what other arts you may have done... in fact, we'll reject students who don't measure up. In addition, due to the manner and method of such traditions, the deeper cultural implications and context, and far more, coupled with the need to be able to adopt a number of aspects of a foreign culture (language, manners, etiquette, thinking frameworks), then yeah... classical arts tend to attract more educated people. By design and by virtue of what they are.

And there's plenty of doctors, lawyers, teachers, etc. who practice Bjj. I wouldn't say one group is more "educated" than the other.

Please. Get over yourself, yeah? The vast majority have backgrounds in arts like judo... in fact, it's considered a requisite in some schools... Ellis Amdur (who teaches a line of Araki Ryu, shown above) requires at least 6 months of serious grappling training (Judo, BJJ, wrestling) for any potential student, in addition to the other requirements... Sosuishi Ryu has had a strong relationship with Kodokan Judo since the Kodokan's inception, which continues to today... meaning a number of Sosuishi Ryu schools also teach judo alongside the classical arts... and frankly, some of the scariest training is found in classical arts... you really need to get over this bizarre idea that people who engage in systems without a competitive side are "afraid" of either competition or rolling/sparring. It's not the case, it's not supported at all by the reality of the practitioners (or the schools), and just makes you sound like an egotistical jerk. I'm sure you don't want that impression to come across, yeah?

Six months training really isn't much of anything. However, beyond that, I'm clearly not talking about the Samurai dress-up schools you're talking about. I will admit that they are operating in a different sphere than your typical martial art school. I'm talking about the JJJ schools that are teaching for self defense purposes, and frankly the same type of people who prefer Aikido or some forms of Kung Fu.

It's an oft-cited reason... however BJJ's "effectiveness in self defence" is demonstrated/marketed through it's competitive side... that's really where the reputation and image comes from. Claiming one context when really demonstrating another. Now, that's not an issue... the conflation of the two contexts into one image is not uncommon, nor is it poorly done. Is it incorrect, or misleading? Yeah, it is... but not in a way that is overly meaningful to most.

Is that why many self-defense oriented systems like Krav Maga integrate Bjj into their curriculums?

That, I would dispute. As is often said, there are as many reasons for someone wanting to take up martial arts as there are people doing martial arts... whether they can express it as anything more than the simple reasons suggested is another thing, of course... and, it must be said, those two values are going to have a much higher rate of likelihood for people doing competitive systems... in other words... dude... your values are not applicable to classical traditions. They may factor for some people, but they are not, in the main, primary reasons.

I'm sure. Some take up a martial art because they want to physically fit. Some take up a martial art because they work a dangerous job and want some additional training. Some take up a martial art because they want to study another culture. Some take up martial arts to become professional fighters. Some take up a "martial art" because they want to wear medieval costumes and swing around medieval weapons and culturally appropriate someone else's culture. Despite all of that, I would still argue that the majority of people enter a martial art school for the purpose of defending themselves.

Since a school teaching the Japanese equivalent of a Renaissance festival wouldn't offer that, I can see your point of view.

Wow... okay, yeah, insulted now. "Pretend to be samurai"?!?! One of the reasons we tend to insist on more mature, educated, stable personalities to train with us to avoid such personalities who may want to do such things.

Again, why would anyone be insulted by that characterization. That's exactly what people are doing in those types of schools. I mean seriously, there is no practical application for learning a routine where you're seated and throwing a cup of tea in someone's face when they rush you with a samurai sword. I take that back, there is an application; It's playing dress up and pretending to be a samurai master in medieval Japan.

No, you haven't. The question is, if we are looking at the idea of classical/traditional Japanese jujutsu being "replaced", what do non-classical, non-traditional, non-Japanese pseudo-jujutsu systems have to do with the discussion? And saying that it's that what most people find means nothing... it doesn't suddenly actually make them relevant. Just... a distraction.

What you're not seeming to grasp here is that tiny little JJJ schools can still exist, but for the vast majority of people "Jujtisu" will inextricably be tied to Brazilian Jiujitsu. Certainly for some tiny minority that will still want to seek out the classical stuff, but if 95% of the martial arts community thinks that "Jujitsu" is just BJJ that means that the classical forms have been replaced by the more popular variation.

Well, that's wrong on a few counts.

Firstly, these trends tend to be more 10-15 years. In the 50's it was primarily Judo and Japanese/Okinawan karate, due to the US GI's learning as part of the occupying force. The 60's were dominated by karate, mostly sport and Korean variants (TKD), as it was the rise of the tournament scene. That gave rise to personalities, such as Chuck Norris, which naturally lead through to movies... and the rise of kung fu from the late 60's through the 70's. The movie scene then shifted again, birthing what was called the "ninja boom" of the late 70's through the 80's. This took us to the early 90's, which saw two main forms rise up to capture the imaginations of potential students. One was BJJ, through the Gracie's promotion and use of the UFC (really a brilliant marketing tool for them initially); the other was the rise of RBSD... however that was far more confronting, so BJJ, being safer and far less scary, won out. By the end of the 90's, though, and heading into the early 2000's, the Gracie's strategies kinda backfired with the UFC taking on it's own form, and promoting "real violence"... which had systems like Krav Maga and RBSD approaches come to the fore again. Through a shrewd business approach, by the mid-2000's, Dana White had salvaged the reputation and image of the UFC (with similar formats coming up and benefiting from this), which has lead to the major trend for the last decade or so... which is not BJJ. It's MMA. In fact, BJJ's "run" as a trend was basically from about 1993 to around 1998... what has kept it going has been the promotion of it as a staple of MMA training... not BJJ for it's own sake.

As you can see, the trends often run from one to the next... arts that are hugely popular at one point slow to a more steady simmer... for systems like BJJ, it's place as part of MMA training has kept it in good stead... but thinking it's been the top trend for 30 years is just denialism or delusion. Is it popular? Yes. As was TKD. And Judo. Do you see those going anywhere, even though no-one's making movies about TKD anymore? Nope. Did MMA kill off TKD? Nope. Did BJJ kill off Judo? Not at all. Are these arts still flavour of the month? Do you see where we're going with this?

I'll grant you about 10 years for each trend, with one easily blending into another. However, the Bjj trend that started in the 1990s is still going on today. The rise of RSBD never supplanted the Bjj craze. What happened is that RSBD types attempted to say that Bjj doesn't work in a "the streets" but it never really caught on because it was ripe with charlatans and sociopaths. Krav Maga was perhaps the most successful out of that grouping, and now you'd be hard pressed to find a Krav Maga school that doesn't teach Bjj. As for MMA, the notion that MMA and Bjj are somehow separate is a bit of a strange angle to take. Bjj started the MMA craze, and in turn you'd be hard pressed to find a MMA gym where BJJ isn't being taught. Part of the reason Bjj continues to grow is because of MMA and the fact that Bjj is considered the grappling art of MMA. NO ONE enters a MMA ring without some Bjj training. The two are like celestial bodies in consistent orbit with each other. One doesn't move without the other.

As for Bjj killing Judo; Judo is/was one of the most prolific martial arts in the world, and frankly it is institutionalized in many countries, including Brazil. What has happened with Bjj is that you have Judoka cross training in Bjj and vice versa which creates a nice little symbiotic relationship that helps grow Bjj and sustains Judo. As for TKD and Karate, those arts have lost a little bit of popularity, but (at least in America) it has a market as a martial art for kids, and for people looking for physical fitness.

It really is. And if you don't see that, then you have no idea of how popularity and promotion works. Your'e just not recognising how that marketing was done, and how it worked...

Again, none of that marketing or promotion works if Royce Gracie didn't win the first few UFCs, and it doesn't work if Bjj isn't objectively viewed as an effective martial art. In other words, Bjj's popularity rests entirely with its fighting ability. If a wrestler enters a Bjj school and beats down the entire class, then goes on to beat down elite Bjj practitioners, Bjj's popularity is damaged. What keeps Bjj popular is the wrestler/karateka entering the Bjj school and getting effortlessly submitted.

No, the difference is that they appealed to the values and mentality of the people at the time. Early "crazes" for Judo and karate were based on the exotic nature, as well as the effectiveness as applied by (dominantly) military servicemen who had also been trained in some of these methods. Coming out of a World War (and heading into the Korean conflict) had people wanting to feel safe... so it appealed to them then. After a while, escapism became more valued, so movies had more of an influence... and so on and so forth. As Tony said, it's all ebbs and flows... it'll swing back the other way at some point. Hell, it might be through this current global craziness we're going through now... coming out of it, people might not want to roll around on the ground with someone (pandemics can change behaviours that way, you know), so they'll look for other approaches... the next major trend might be weapon work, as it allows you to work from a distance... it might be Kendo and Iaido... the first is distanced, competitive, and you wear a mask.. the second is a solo exercise form (in the main), so you don't have to get close to anyone, but is less physically confronting (although I would say more mentally stressing and demanding). Or we could see Tai-Bo making a return, as people look for something martial-themed with more of a fitness element (again, health being a major concern coming out of a pandemic), that doesn't require someone two inches from your face. Time will tell.

Yes, and Judoka were beaten by wrestlers, and Karateka were beaten by boxers. However, Karate made a brief come back because people saw Bruce Lee movies, wanted to learn martial arts, and the only thing around were karate dojos. However, with that said Karate exponents were still getting beaten up by boxers. I'm old enough to remember people saying that "Karate doesn't work" because we had black belts in Karate getting beaten up by the random schoolyard bully or the neighborhood street fighter. Thus when Aikido came along, people easily flocked to that because they saw Steven Segal toss bad guys around and thought that was super effective. Again, it is the perception of effectiveness that drives the ebb and flow, it isn't random by any stretch.

That was an announcement... but it was not what changed people's minds. It was just the start of it. And, let's be very, very clear here... that whole thing was a marketing play by the Gracies. Pure and simple. It was set up to showcase their art, and worked well. Of course, people didn't get it at the time (as mentioned, complaining and booing at the length of "inaction" seen, not understanding why people were tapping out, and so on), but the Gracie's persisted, and eventually started to build their arts reputation. I will say that a number of their methods were... less than straight up. Taking out full page ads in entertainment magazines to challenge people who had absolutely nothing to gain, like Benny "The Jet" Urquidez... issuing a challenge to Mike Tyson (when he was in jail), and so on... dude... it was ALL publicity, image-making, propaganda, and marketing. The reason they took out ads in entertainment magazines? The same reason they held that first UFC... they were opening schools in the US, notably in LA and Hollywood, and wanted the publicity... so they took out ads and put on shows where people would see them. Not martial artists. The people.

Again, none of that works if Royce Gracie loses. I certainly hope you're not one of those types who believes he fought nothing but weak fighters, or that the fights were somehow fixed.

Please. There is no "reality" behind it. It's just a somewhat less-limited form of competition. There's just as much reality in a Judo competition... or a kendo match... or a point-karate tournament. It's just differing contexts, rulesets, and limitations. Anyone who thinks that equals "reality" has no clue.

Considering Bjj's performance in modern MMA, and the ruleset of modern Judo competition compared to even sport Bjj, I would say its far more reality based than Judo competition or a Kendo match.

No, it doesn't require that. Or, more accurately, it didn't require that. As I said, the BJJ "trend" is over. It has been for nearly 20 years. Is it still popular? Yep. So are a lot of former trends. But it's not the current trend. That's more MMA than anything else right now. All that's required for a trend to be superseded by another is for the second one to capture the people's imagination more. Which MMA did, taking over for BJJ, quite a while back... but, honestly, BJJ's push to be seen as "real", and "more realistic than other arts" was what really doomed it's trend... as that gave rise to even more "realistic" approaches... Krav Maga and RBSD. They were then taken over by MMA... which is just as much a spectator thing as a participant thing (you can't really be a spectator for Krav Maga and RBSD... they don't make good movies), allowing it to capture imagination back again.

Uh, Karate, TKD, Aikido, Judo, and Ninjutsu schools are decreasing, while Bjj schools are increasing. I wouldn't say the trend is over by any stretch. And again, you'd be hard pressed to find a Krav Maga school that isn't teaching Bjj.

And no-one has disputed that. Hell, I've said multiple times that BJJ has been incredibly successful in spreading out to the world... but that's not the case you put forth. You put forth that BJJ was "replacing" traditional/Classical Japanese jujutsu... and it's not. They don't share the same sphere, they don't even breathe the same air. Both are just fine being what they are.

Like I said, when we get to the point where the martial arts community at large immediately thinks Brazilian Jiujitsu when Jujitsu is mentioned, that's the replacing I'm talking about. Again, 30 years ago that wasn't the case, but it is rapidly becoming the case now. You will always have those tiny little JJJ schools teaching whatever, but the standard is moving towards the most popular variant with consistent quality and brand recognition. As you said, it's simply human nature.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As for MMA, the notion that MMA and Bjj are somehow separate is a bit of a strange angle to take. Bjj started the MMA craze, and in turn you'd be hard pressed to find a MMA gym where BJJ isn't being taught. Part of the reason Bjj continues to grow is because of MMA and the fact that Bjj is considered the grappling art of MMA. NO ONE enters a MMA ring without some Bjj training. The two are like celestial bodies in consistent orbit with each other. One doesn't move without the other.

A couple of quibbles with this:

1) Almost any good MMA gym will include BJJ instruction, but many BJJ schools don't include MMA instruction. Of those that don't, a significant number don't train the fundamentals of actual fighting, focusing almost exclusively on preparation for competition ground-grappling tournament formats. Even in gyms which have both BJJ and MMA, a large number of BJJ students don't cross over into the MMA classes, so if the BJJ class doesn't spend significant time dealing with punches and other aspects of real fighting, those students aren't learning a complete fighting art. These are the factors which make me worry that BJJ could lose its realistic status and reputation as a fighting art.

2) BJJ is still the most widespread (though not the only) submission grappling art in MMA. However there is a good case to be made that wrestling (as modified for the MMA context) is currently the most important grappling art in MMA. There are more top fighters coming from a primary wrestling background than from a primary BJJ background. I think there's also a reasonable argument that more fights are currently won or lost based on the fighters wrestling ability than on their BJJ ability.

 

[O'Malley]

Let's make a thread "will wrestling eventually replace Brazilian jujitsu?".

Also, Hanzou, your last answer confirmed that you were only looking to spit on classical jujutsu. That's a pitiful attitude to have.

 

[Hanzou]

A couple of quibbles with this:

1) Almost any good MMA gym will include BJJ instruction, but many BJJ schools don't include MMA instruction. Of those that don't, a significant number don't train the fundamentals of actual fighting, focusing almost exclusively on preparation for competition ground-grappling tournament formats. Even in gyms which have both BJJ and MMA, a large number of BJJ students don't cross over into the MMA classes, so if the BJJ class doesn't spend significant time dealing with punches and other aspects of real fighting, those students aren't learning a complete fighting art. These are the factors which make me worry that BJJ could lose its realistic status and reputation as a fighting art.

My purple belt in Bjj came from Relson Gracie JJ, so trust me I know what you're talking about, and it worries me as well. I would just say that as long as Bjj is tied to MMA, and as long as the Gracie family pushes self defense (and schools like Renzo's that are closely MMA based), that component of utilizing Jiujitsu in a realistic format will always be in place.

2) BJJ is still the most widespread (though not the only) submission grappling art in MMA. However there is a good case to be made that wrestling (as modified for the MMA context) is currently the most important grappling art in MMA. There are more top fighters coming from a primary wrestling background than from a primary BJJ background. I think there's also a reasonable argument that more fights are currently won or lost based on the fighters wrestling ability than on their BJJ ability.

I can't speak for outside of the US, but in the US wrestling is more prevalent in MMA simply because wrestling is taught in the high schools and colleges there. That creates a huge base of wrestlers that have the potential to eventually move into MMA. The main thing to remember though is that those wrestlers still have to filter through Bjj to be competitive in MMA, which again bolsters Bjj in multiple ways; Bjj gets more students, Bjj gets exposed to wrestling and wrestlers which benefits the martial art as a whole (improves takedowns and prevents Bjj from becoming a butt scooting contest), and Bjj continues to be the grappling art of choice for MMA. I personally know quite a few former NCAA wrestlers who went into Bjj with the intent of going into MMA, fought a few matches, and returned to Bjj to get their black belts and become instructors. They in turn put out monsters of students who have amazing takedowns and top pressure.

 

[Hanzou]

Let's make a thread "will wrestling eventually replace Brazilian jujitsu?".

Also, Hanzou, your last answer confirmed that you were only looking to spit on classical jujutsu. That's a pitiful attitude to have.

Check out my response to Tony to see why that won't happen.

This is the second time you've accused me of doing something in this thread and refusing to point out where I did it. Now you're accusing me of "spitting" on classical Jujutsu. I'd like to know where I did that. Was it because I said that it consisted of people playing dress up and doing cultural appropriation? Okay, where's the insult? That's exactly what they're doing in those types of schools.

Putting on a Japanese costume, swinging around a samurai sword, and learning Japanese mannerisms is all fine and good if that's what you want to do with your time. However, it's not self defense or fighting. To put it another way, it would be like my very German wife taking a class on how to be a Geisha and learning a tea ceremony in order to be a bartender in a dive bar. I'm sorry if the truth offends you.

 

[O'Malley]

This is the second time you've accused me of doing something in this thread and refusing to point out where I did it.

The first time I said you were making stuff up. You were, and you still are. When I asked you to point out the passage of the article where the author goes to Japan, asks for "jujitsu" and gets shown the way to a BJJ gym. You could not, because that was stuff you made up.

I'll be blunt as well; There's a difference between a martial art designed for self defense and fighting, and a martial art designed to play dress up on the weekends. Part of the reason classical martial arts as a whole are on the decline is because they want to be the latter instead of the former.

Here, you assert that classical martial arts were made to "play dress up on the weekends" while you obviously don't have a single clue about how and why those systems were designed. You are making stuff up.

One of the reasons someone would go to a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school is because they're afraid of rolling with people larger than themselves, or getting embarrassed by being choked out by someone smaller than themselves. When they do grow the stones to pop into a Bjj gym and put their "black belt" to the test, they get completely outclassed by a junior white belt and they walk (or run) out of the gym never to be seen again.

Here again, you make assertions while having no clue about the motivations of people who go to classical JJJ schools. You make stuff up. And Chris made it very clear that what you are saying is just plain wrong.

Is it any wonder why Jujitsu is being attributed mainly to Bjj than the other arts who carry the name?

Source?

Now you're accusing me of "spitting" on classical Jujutsu. I'd like to know where I did that. Was it because I said that it consisted of people playing dress up and doing cultural appropriation? Okay, where's the insult? That's exactly what they're doing in those types of schools.

Style bashing is against MT rules. You created a thread just to do that.

Putting on a Japanese costume, swinging around a samurai sword, and learning Japanese mannerisms is all fine and good if that's what you want to do with your time. However, it's not self defense or fighting. To put it another way, it would be like my very German wife taking a class on how to be a Geisha and learning a tea ceremony in order to be a bartender in a dive bar. I'm sorry if the truth offends you.

I'm not even offended, as I've got no horse in this race. But it's puzzling that you think you can speak the "truth" about stuff that you don't understand. You had the opportunity to actually learn about these systems, as Chris has been practicing them for years. Instead, you chose to stick to ludicrous, made up assumptions about those arts just so you can say "ha! my BJJ is beating your JJJ!".

One reason someone would choose a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school would be if they generalize based on your posts in this thread. Nobody would want to be around obnoxious, cultish-sounding guys who feel the need to parade their superiority complex on the internet. "Yes, I can see how that could be off-putting for someone."

 

[drop bear]

This assumes that Classical JJ systems are fine cuisine while modern systems are fast food. In actuality, a better analogy would be that it's all fast food, with classical systems being that fast food shack you find in a random small town with questionable quality versus McDonalds which is found all over the world that you can sue if you get sick from an undercook fish sandwich. In that proper comparison, fast food is immediately associated with McDonald's due to its dominance on the fast food landscape. I'm arguing that Bjj is doing the exact same thing with Jiujitsu. Sure, Sal's Burger and Fries will always be on its tiny corner on the south side of Memphis, but if I'm driving through Tennessee and want a fast food burger, I'm more than likely stopping at McDonald's.

the comparison would be if you said cancer treatment will replace crystal healing.

And it doesn't.

They are done for different purposes.

The idea of a generic term like self defence or martial arts that in reality doesn't mean anything is a common part of society these days.

I have a shampoo that is "mother approved" or something. That doesn't mean I will ever find the actual mother who approved it. It is just something people say.

Japanese jujitsu will never compete with arts that are focused on increasing fighting abilities or improving human qualities.

Just like healing crystals will not cure cancer. But people do not seek these outlets for these reasons.

They engage in these because it is fun. And that is a priority enough for enough people to endure.

 

[drop bear]

Let's make a thread "will wrestling eventually replace Brazilian jujitsu?".

Also, Hanzou, your last answer confirmed that you were only looking to spit on classical jujutsu. That's a pitiful attitude to have.

Mabye because they are both kind of trying to do the same thing with about the same measure of effectiveness.

So a wrestler could go in to a BJJ school and murder the whole room creating a shift of focus that if BJJ did more wrestling then they would win more at BJJ.

Direct head to head competition for kind of the same resources.

If that same wrestler goes in to a JJJ school. Nobody would care. Because winning fights or being good at this physical expression of martial arts isn't the point of what they are doing.

They are trying to be good at Japanese Jujitsu. Which has its own measure of standard.

I mean we all know these are not workable techniques in this form. But they are not ment to be. They are not judged on their workability.

There is a reason the uke just falls over during these demonstrations.

 

[Hanzou]

The first time I said you were making stuff up. You were, and you still are. When I asked you to point out the passage of the article where the author goes to Japan, asks for "jujitsu" and gets shown the way to a BJJ gym. You could not, because that was stuff you made up.

And I already said that I misread a portion of the article. The gist of the original point remains the same; A guy goes to Japan in search of Jujitsu, winds up in a BJJ school for a variety of reasons.

Here, you assert that classical martial arts were made to "play dress up on the weekends" while you obviously don't have a single clue about how and why those systems were designed. You are making stuff up.

I didn't say that's why they were created, I'm saying that's what their purpose is NOW.

Here again, you make assertions while having no clue about the motivations of people who go to classical JJJ schools. You make stuff up. And Chris made it very clear that what you are saying is just plain wrong.

I have experience with such people, and that's exactly why they chose JJJ. BTW, I'm not talking about the Renaissance fair type of JJJ, I'm talking about the JJJ where they combine modern arts and call it Japanese Jujutsu.

Source?

The article in the OP for example.

Style bashing is against MT rules. You created a thread just to do that.

Where's the style bashing? What's the difference between those vids Chris posted and Civil War re-enactors, or people dressing up as medieval knights and learning medieval European weapons and etiquette? You're simply being over sensitive.

I'm not even offended, as I've got no horse in this race. But it's puzzling that you think you can speak the "truth" about stuff that you don't understand. You had the opportunity to actually learn about these systems, as Chris has been practicing them for years. Instead, you chose to stick to ludicrous, made up assumptions about those arts just so you can say "ha! my BJJ is beating your JJJ!".

One reason someone would choose a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school would be if they generalize based on your posts in this thread. Nobody would want to be around obnoxious, cultish-sounding guys who feel the need to parade their superiority complex on the internet. "Yes, I can see how that could be off-putting for someone."

Yes, that's right, I don't "understand". LoL! I know why those classical arts were created. I know why they're rare and hard to find now. I also know the difference between what Chris is talking about and the type of JJJ that your average person is likely to run into. If someone chooses to learn a 17th century Japanese performance art over BJJ, that's their business. People enjoy different things. Some people like to actually fight and others like to dress up and pretend to fight with antique weapons and customs. Hey, we all have our personal points of enjoyment, and folks have every right to engage in it. There's space in the martial arts for both.

Like I said, you're being overly sensitive.

 

[jobo]

This assumes that Classical JJ systems are fine cuisine while modern systems are fast food. In actuality, a better analogy would be that it's all fast food, with classical systems being that fast food shack you find in a random small town with questionable quality versus McDonalds which is found all over the world that you can sue if you get sick from an undercook fish sandwich. In that proper comparison, fast food is immediately associated with McDonald's due to its dominance on the fast food landscape. I'm arguing that Bjj is doing the exact same thing with Jiujitsu. Sure, Sal's Burger and Fries will always be on its tiny corner on the south side of Memphis, but if I'm driving through Tennessee and want a fast food burger, I'm more than likely stopping at McDonald's.



Yes, there are classical jujutsu schools that constantly teeter on the edge of extinction. Interesting that you consider this a good thing.



Because the people seeking out those systems are more than likely seeking them out for self defense and fighting purposes. Obviously some aren't, but many are, like that guy in the article I posted.



Because people seeking out classical Jujitsu study tend to run across schools like that before ever running across a legitimate JJJ dojo, which leads to the perception that JJJ is ineffective for self defense/fighting purposes. That in turn, pushes even more people into Bjj because it's viewed as a safe bet.



I'll be blunt as well; There's a difference between a martial art designed for self defense and fighting, and a martial art designed to play dress up on the weekends. Part of the reason classical martial arts as a whole are on the decline is because they want to be the latter instead of the former.




The idea that people choose JJJ over BJJ because they're more "educated" is laughable. People choose classical martial arts over BJJ for a host of reasons. I'll be blunt again; One of the reasons someone would go to a classical JJJ school over a BJJ school is because they're afraid of rolling with people larger than themselves, or getting embarrassed by being choked out by someone smaller than themselves. When they do grow the stones to pop into a Bjj gym and put their "black belt" to the test, they get completely outclassed by a junior white belt and they walk (or run) out of the gym never to be seen again. Again, some people want to learn how to defend themselves, other want to pretend like they're living in 17th century Japan. Your mileage may vary.




Except the majority of people taking Bjj are doing it for self defense, not the competitive side of it. Which I'm willing to bet (Self defense) is the main reason the majority of people take up martial arts period, including classical jujutsu.

I'm also well aware of authenticity being a major concern among traditional jujutsu folks. It's a major concern among Bjj practitioners as well. Heck, I'm willing to bet (again) that the majority of people taking up MA are quite concerned about whether or not they're learning from a qualified/authentic instructor.

See? Our values aren't much different than yours.



Again though, the vast majority of people take up martial arts for self defense and fitness. A tiny (and ever shrinking) minority take it up to pretend to be Samurai and revel in cultural preservation of a culture they don't belong to. So yes, "performance" is going to align similarly for the vast majority of MA practitioners out there, which again explains why Bjj is as popular as it is, and becoming even more popular as time goes on.



You speak for all classical arts? Interesting.



I've already explained this.



Those earlier trends lasted 3-5 years. The Bjj "trend" has lasted almost 30 years. So no it isn't just popular culture, imagery, marketing, etc. that drives its popularity (though those are part of it). The difference is that those earlier crazes were largely based on fantasy with nothing backing them up. The Ninja trend for example was largely based on action movies where you had actors doing Ninja stuff. That in turn led to a flood of ninjutsu schools with not a whole lot of quality behind them.

Bjj on the other hand got popular through a NHB bout where a smaller fighter bested a string of fighters who were larger than he was. There was a reality behind it, and 30 years later, that reality is still in place. Like I said to Tony, the Bjj "trend" doesn't end until someone dojo storms a Bjj gym and wrecks the entire class the way Bjj did back in the day.

That fact is why you’re seeing Bjj, an American martial art, penetrate other countries on the level it has, including Japan.

how can a corner be tiny all corners are exactly the same size ?

i smile when you say bjj is the ma equivalent of MDs, in the uk MDs is considered the the very epitome of expensive homogenised ****, only for those lacking in good sense and health awareness, so yes you may very well be correct in you comparison

 

[Hanzou]

how can a corner be tiny all corners are exactly the same size ?

Perhaps corners are larger in the UK?

i smile when you say bjj is the ma equivalent of MDs, in the uk MDs is considered the the very epitome of expensive homogenised ****, only for those lacking in good sense and health awareness, so yes you may very well be correct in you comparison

As if anyone cares about the UK's opinion on anything.....