When Did You Start Noticing Your Mistakes?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Shinobi Teikiatsu, Apr 25, 2009.

  1. Shinobi Teikiatsu

    Shinobi Teikiatsu Green Belt

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    Yeah, the title is pretty self-explanatory, but there's a little bit more to it than that. I don't mean noticing when your technique isn't working, I mean when did you get to the point in your training when you noticed EVERYTHING you were doing wrong (I think this happens after you've spent some time training, because I don't think beginners can see all the mistakes they're making). These things can include noticing that your legs are too far apart, your feet aren't pointed correctly, you aren't breathing properly, you aren't standing in the right place, you're forcing too much, or whatever.

    For me it's just started, I've been going to my class and just tearing myself apart noticing all the things that I've been doing wrong, and I always remind myself to take it back to the basics. So I started with our basic punch (in Taijutsu, this would be our Ichi Monji stance to a punch) and I immediately noticed that I put too much emphasis on my front leg, and I pulled my shoulder back too far before I punched (making all of my punches seem telegraphed). So I've been making sure to work on that at all times, and I've started to notice an improvement in all my punching, and any time I need to make a movement like a punch.

    So yeah, back to the basic question, when did you start to notice all the mistakes that you were making, beyond what the average observer could have noticed?
     
  2. shihansmurf

    shihansmurf Black Belt

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    About the time I got married. Shortly thereafter I stopped needing to do so for myself, though......

    :whip1:

    If you mean in reference to the martial arts then I would say that I really became able to self-diagnose my performance in a meaningful way around the time I hit Brown belt(a few promotions from Black for us shotokan guys). At that point I had internalized my skill set to the point that I was able to note deficiencies and affect corrections properly.

    As a boxer, I would have to say that almost immediately upon working with the heavy bag. The feedback that it provides is invaluable.

    Mark
     
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  3. seninoniwashi

    seninoniwashi Green Belt

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    For me over time it became what felt strong and solid for me. After you work your techniques and what's comfortable in imaginary situations overtime or in sparring you start to feel what feels right for you. I think the big turning point for me was blindfolding myself and visualizing what my attacks/defenses would do - imagining the damage. I also found that before going to bed if I also visualized it helped a bit too. As long as I don't work myself up to much to where I couldn't get to sleep. That happens from time to time.
     
  4. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    Actually it was around Blue belt, things just started to click so when the powr was not there it was big deal for me. Now days I notice every little thing but that is what happen after 40 years.
     
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    You know what, I don't think I ever will see everything I'm doing wrong. Just when I think I have it all understood, my instructor or my fellow seniors and instructors will point something out that I've missed. Just one more reason to always have people around who are better than yourself, I guess!
     
  6. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    I notice some of them; not all.

    Atm we spend a lot of time on rolling and tai sabaki. With rolling it is easy enough to know if you are making mistakes: it feels bumpy :)
    Also our dojo is lined with mirrors at one side, so I often stand in front of them to get visual feedback about my stance. I have to admit that this is a real big help. Bigger than I expected.

    Of course I am still new to ninpo, so I don't catch a lot of my own mistakes. Sensei usually points them out to me. But in a lot of body movements I've found that if it feels akward instead of smooth, I'm probably doing something wrong.
     
  7. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Just thinking about it, I was reminded of a quote from Bruce Lee: "Before I started training, a punch was just a punch. When I had been training for a while, a punch became a complex series of motions, angles, possibilities, and variations. Then, when I had been training even longer, a punch was just a punch".

    What you see, and what you realise you need to work on, are two different things really. The focus should just be to improve every day, or at least to strive to.
     
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  8. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Repetition and correction are key to muscle memory. We trained basics and kata relentlessly, to the point of boredom, but things payed off within the first few years. The payoff really came when the Sensei would let the higher belts work with beginners and lower belts. I have found that we learn and relearn throughout our training, but beyond that, teaching was my biggest reward for personnel development.
     
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Hey there :)I think I am fortunate in noticing my mistakes early on. Maybe I just made more of them and had ample practice in fixing them :) For me (as an Aikido practitioner) I found that most techniques could not be obviously fluffed - they either felt too strenuous or I ended up in an awkward position or even with a little twinge of pain.

    I guess, standalone practise is a more difficult way to diagnose your mistakes than if you were sparring in some way, particularly with a non-compliant partner. In the example you cited, if you had been sparring perhaps, too much emphasis on your lead leg for a punch may have resulted in your opponent bringing you down onto your face, just as too much weight over your trailing leg might have got you shoved back etc.

    I guess, as long as there is shared wisdom between you and your training partners (whether senior or not) you can all make good spotters for each other's mistakes - and take it as benefitting everyone :)

    Good luck :)
    Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
    Jenna
     
  10. searcher

    searcher Senior Master

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    Mine was the first tiem I had a sparring session. Pain was a part of making a mistake and I learned it very quickly.
     
  11. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    My fourth class. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Yes my fourth class. The instructor told me what strike he was going to do with a rattan cane, and told me what block he expected me to to do. He did this for everyone in line. We went down the line and then on the way back, he told me the same thing just like everyone else. Only he swung differently. I did not do the block I was told to do. I blocked the strike I saw coming at me. (* I did not want to get hit by a stick. I knew it would hurt. *) The senior colored belt in class stated, You did not do the block you were told. The instructor smiled and said yes he did not do the block he was told. He then asked me why? I explained I did not want to get hit. The instructor laughed and said, good plan. Always avoid getting hit if possible.

    I did everything wrong, but I did not get hit.

    I know, how the heck does this fit the original post. It does. Perception is everything. If we perceive that what I did was wrong, then I could fix it. But in this case there was not "RIGHT" answer either way I was wrong. The best I could ever hope for was to be less wrong.

    Also see rest of post.

    This is subjective. Which also supports my comments above.

    To a person training for a few months to the person training a few days, the person training a few days is a beginner. The person training a couple fo years the person training for a few months is a beginner. To her person training for a decade the person training a couple of years is a beginner. It keeps going on and on.

    So, some time for me would be in perspective to when I was training. What constituted "EVERYTHING" for me at that time.

    What is the person does not know about all of these and only know about two. Do they now see everything that is wrong from their point of view?



    An excellent comment here. It has just started. I am still trying to see "EVERYTHING" that is wrong, and I see lots of things while teaching and practicing and even watching.



    This si good and bad. It is good to notice that you are not as good as you can be, and to try to correct it. But to only tear yourself apart is a negative habit, that could led to not training. You should also tell yourself when you are improving and have corrected something, even if it is just to your understanding at that time.


    I agree. The thing I want to point out is that your basics today are not the basics of when you started. They will not be the basics of your fighting when you have trained even for more time(years).


    Good place to start.


    While this is good to notice the issues you mentioned above, it is also important to understand the teaching style being used.

    If the isntructor is having you over emphasize something right now to make sure you are moving your shoulders and cocking your hips properly to strike, then this can be seen and felt by the student with the larger and telegraphed motion.

    It is also good to tighten the motions, but look at what the motions were having you do with your body, and when you have tightened them, make sure you have still doing the same motions.


    This is good. But as ai stated above make sure you do not drop or loose something when you make a correction.


    My fourth class. I instantly knew I did not want to be wrong and do the wrong technique. I also instantly knew that I did not want to get hit. So, I choose which mistake to make.

    Over time, my definition of everything and understanding of what I was learning changed, and so I was always looking and readjusting.

    The good instructors, do not just state there is no end, as infinity is not reachable. They actually continue to make improvements, adjust to the environment and what is being offered and questioned.

    Also the Good instructor does not reach a certain point and then just stop training and only has to rest on what they have done in the past.

    Of course this is my opinion, and you and everyone else has your own opinion, and can differ completely or in part, without hurting my feelings or either of us having to be wrong from our point of view. :) ;)
     
  12. Shinobi Teikiatsu

    Shinobi Teikiatsu Green Belt

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    Well of course not getting hit is not wrong, if you think that, by getting hit in the face with a stick, you're performing correctly then...well I pray for you, I really do.

    Anyways, I didn't mean to make my comment sound like I thought beginners could not evaluate themselves, as it is human instinct to try and avoid pain, but I meant as far as your technique, form and performance went.

    As it was stated above, quoted from Bruce Lee, a punch is a punch, until it is something else, then it is a punch again. So for a beginner, that may have been just a block, then you train some more and perfect your blocking techniques, trying to work out all the kinks, and then it's a block again.

    I just feel like there are certain things that a trained student can notice about themselves and other students, that an observer or beginner can not. But, as you stated, that's an opinion.
     
  13. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    I noticed early on in my training that I did things wrong.. The more I learned the more I found that I would make mistakes. When I started teaching ( read first day of teaching) I really noticed all of my mistakes.
    Dose that mean that I no longer make mistakes ….NO, I still make them but I do still try to correct them.
     
  14. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    A couple of points.

    Of course I chose not to get hit as that wrong was the one to avoid. But I was still wrong as I did not follow instructions.

    My point is that there are no absolutes. Think on it.

    As to praying for me. I will say thank you. And I can hope and pray for you as well, in my own way, that you will see the enlightenment as well.

    This is another situation where there is no absolute.
     
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  15. Ken Morgan

    Ken Morgan Senior Master

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    I noticed my mistakes the first month in. I wish I could spot them that easily these ten years later. It’s more of a, that didn’t “feel” correct, then my angles wrong, IDing my mistakes has become very instinctive. I tend to know what’s correct and what’s not, actually producing it on the floor can be a *****.

    Sometimes I’ll be practicing in class and sensei will show me a correction, I’ll think/say, but I’m doing that, and he’ll say, no, you’re doing this….then a little light goes off in my head. I had no idea I was doing it wrong.
     
  16. BLACK LION

    BLACK LION Black Belt

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    I am 30.

    I really began noticing my ultimate mistake about 7 years ago when I came home after my enlistment in the military was up and learned that a good friend of mine ,a great fighter and prize pupil under Master Tom Gwak had been stabbed to death after winning a fight with 5 gang members who attempted to rob his brother outside a club. I also found out that another good friend of mine who was also a great fighter and golden gloves champion had been shot in the head while in his car by someone we both knew.
    It really hit me and forever changed me after I found out I was going to be a father and have a family of my own.

    That mistake was my training. It had been purely social.

    Now...

    I am either diffusing it or destroying it, understanding and applying only the principles that work everytime and not hundreds of techniques that only work some of the time.
     
  17. shihansmurf

    shihansmurf Black Belt

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    A difficult lesson.

    Most people take the training too lightly, I think, given that should one need to utilize their skills to protect themselves or others that there is no room for error. The proving ground is unforgiving.

    While I don't believe that there exists any principle that works every time, I've yet to find a 100% absolute in fighting, the fact that you are deconstructing the material and internalizing the whys of it versus the hows will increase your abilities by huge amounts. I have found that the process of learning the formulation of good technique is more important to having effective skills that just parroting a bunch of moves. Monkey see, monkey do isn't effective, IMHO.


    Mark
     
  18. BLACK LION

    BLACK LION Black Belt

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    I agree...

    nothing is 100% percent.
    However a library of techniques to break an arm or leg can equate to one simple principle of physics and physiology. When the adrenal stress kicks in I can only rely on basic principles becuase I know and understand that my "database" really wont be accessible and all I will ahve is my instinct.

    It really boild down to putting my entire self through the threat and movign to the next. That is the how and why. It broke becuase I made it break... he stopped breathing because I made him stop.

    I can take a piece of wood and grab an axe with the intent to chop it into pieces... I can inturn try every way possible to chop it up...I can drop the axe on it...I can throw it... I can drop the wood on the axe etc... I can absorb all these techniques of wood splitting or I can understand that by focusing all my body weight on the tool and on the target and putting it all the way through the pice of wood... it goes choppie, every time...
    I may miss or the pieces may not all be straight but it will go chop...

    mastering the basic principle will ensure your success as long as you do not stop until the job is done...


    I learned recently that not everyone can be thrown, manipulated into locks or subdued as such... there are too many size and weight variables as well as other things such as pain tolerance and chemical additives...

    however...

    everyone can be dumped and broken....




    does that make any sense???




    thank you
     
  19. shihansmurf

    shihansmurf Black Belt

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    Makes sense.

    I think that the psychology of the individual cannot be discounted either. I know that the longer I train I rely on a few core techniques, especially when I'm tired or injured, but I am comfortable in a violent situation and can access my database and having more options at my disposal is a positive thing. I think that the process of learning a large body of material and then discovering for yourself, through experimentation in heavy contact sparring and realistic scenario training, what works for the individual is essential for developing good fighting skills. I am always concerned when I see the courses that purport to cut through the mess and give you the "lean" and "mean" system to defend yourself with. I think that they are cutting out an important part of the process, namely the actual process.

    Just my view
    Mark
     
  20. teekin

    teekin 3rd Black Belt

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    This is the worst part of the process, not knowing that you don't know. This is the best part of sparing and rolling with higher belts, you find out what you don't know real quick. If you at least know the questions you can go looking for the answers. I wonder how those who learn and train from books and videos on their own can find their "holes"?.
    lori123
     

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