whats the point of grappling arts?

[Steve]

Are you so blinded by your ground system that you can't even read that I stated "if you stay ON the ground against multiple attackers is foolish" why are you deliberately ignoring that statement. Have you even ever been attacked by multiple assailants?

I'm not blinded by anything. Is it a good idea to know how to grapple on the ground or not? You say no and then you say yes. Which is it? If you're fighting multiple guys, is your striking good enough to ensure you won't be put on the ground?

 

[Steve]

What I stated is that it is useless to stay on the ground using grappling in a real world scenario and I will stand by that statement.

And if you aren't competent grappling in the ground, how do you avoid staying there? It's nonsensical.

 

[drop bear]

There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.

How about you?

How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?

Last time for me was when I suplexed a large aboriginal man who wanted to bash me because he was tough from being in prison.
He had 3 mates and nobody was keen to jump in after that for some reason.

Nobody got stabbed.

 

[Steve]

There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.

How about you?

How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?

Last time I was in the ground against multiple attackers, I used my laser vision.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I still stand by original statement...it's might be useful in a one one one scenario.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Last time for me was when I suplexed a large aboriginal man who wanted to bash me because he was tough from being in prison.
He had 3 mates and nobody was keen to jump in after that for some reason.

Nobody got stabbed.

I don't even know how to respond to that. You were not attacked buy multiple assailants.

 

[drop bear]

Last time I was in the ground against multiple attackers, I used my laser vision.

Just because it didn't happen on you tube. Does not mean it didn't happen.

 

[Steve]

I still stand by original statement...it's might be useful in a one one one scenario.

So once again, if you're on the ground fighting 5 guys, is it better to know ground fighting or not?

 

[Steve]

Just because it didn't happen on you tube. Does not mean it didn't happen.

That's true. I don't like to advertise my laser vision ability.

 

[drop bear]

I don't even know how to respond to that. You were not attacked buy multiple assailants.

And yet grappling in the streets. I was not attacked by the guys friends. Wasn't stabbed and did not even fall in broken glass.

Shouldn't even count as a street fight really.

 

[drop bear]

That's true. I don't like to advertise my laser vision ability.

As a true martial artist you are not in it for the ego of putting fights out there for the public.

Private lessons for the right money on the other hand.........

 

[Deleted member 34973]

So once again, if you're on the ground fighting 5 guys, is it better to know ground fighting or not?

Let me see a video of it and then, I will make my decision. The shear amount of potentials are, to say the least, staggering. I can say now at this time, after seeing and being in situations like that. That staying on the ground, and fighting five guys, who most likely won't stay on the ground, is definitely a resounding no. Now, if you are saying that you can grapple standing up and on the ground, as I previously stated that being made aware. That a few commenters understood it as standing and ground grappling, then yes absoulutly.

But training to grapple multiple attackers while remaining on ground, is a waste of time.

There are far to many scenarios to cover.

Well guys its been a great debate but, time to spend time with my family. Have a great night and I will yak at you tomorrow.

 

[drop bear]

Let me see a video of it and then, I will make my decision. The shear amount of potentials are, to say the least, staggering. I can say now at this time, after seeing and being in situations like that. That staying on the ground, and fighting five guys, who most likely won't stay on the ground, is definitely a resounding no. Now, if you are saying that you can grapple standing up and on the ground, as I previously stated that being made aware. That a few commenters understood it as standing and ground grappling, then yes absoulutly.

But training to grapple multiple attackers while remaining on ground, is a waste of time.

There are far to many scenarios to cover.

Well guys its been a great debate but, time to spend time with my family. Have a great night and I will yak at you tomorrow.

So you can fight five guys?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Many ancient MA skills that people don't train enough today. Those are:

- mobility, hit and run,
- throw objects (dagger, dart, rock, ...),
- dodging throwing objects,
- out run fat cops,
- ...

If you can out run your opponent, nobody can hit you and nobody can take you down.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Multiple attackers? No problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Buka]

I am curious, do you have any video demonstrations of these courses? Was the ground work geared towards multiple attackers while on the ground? Not being snide, I really am interested in the structure of the course you taught.

I didn't take it as snide, bro. Not in the least bit.

I do not have any videos. My old department does, but they don't share diddly. As to the ground, there's a lot to it, but I think you might be imagining it in a context differently than how we work/utilize it. If you're imagining grappling as you might see in a competition, on tv, or in grappling training, that's not really it. For the most part, anyway

If you get knocked down, slip, whatever, and are on the ground, surrounded by multiples, there's a lot of things that have to be trained. One is to roll towards anyone, or group of them, that are at either of your sides and facing you like they're about to kick you to death, which they're going to try to do. You roll fast, like you're on fire, over their feet into the shins - hyper-extending knees and dropping them backwards. It's wonderfully effective, but you have to be really careful training this. This is not an end all, merely an initial move. (takes about a half second, but starts to change the dynamics)You have to be aware of your head, and where anyone is in regards to it. We use what has been termed an umbrella block (bent arm) to protect the head, but away from it. Have to be careful with it as if it's too close to your head, their shoe will fit underneath and you'll get clocked. Have to be able to move it upwards as well, for raised downward stomps, which aren't really as dangerous as kicks sliding along the ground. (with a week of training, the stomps are fairly easy to deflect or catch.)

Your feet, legs bent, are always ready to kick, thrust, or trip standing enemies. There are several ways to do this and everyone has their favorites usually based on which ones come the most natural to them during initial training.

There is a constant practice to scramble up to your feet, but it must be practiced over and over, from your back (legs up, legs down, legs anyway you can think of) from your side (straight legged, bent legged or balled up.) face down, which we discourage (but practice nonetheless) as you're better off rolling to get up. There is also the use of weapons from the ground, both side-arm or blade. I suppose you could include sprays, but we never took them seriously, I've never known them to stop a determined individual, never mind a group.

You should practice basic mount escape and all it's variables, practicing not only the escape, but accessing your weapon(s) as well, WHILE you are doing it. Practice full guard, not only to prevent the person from mounting you but to use them as a shield, also while accessing a weapon.

You practice a lot of breakfall, which is instrumental to any grappling art. Also a fall where you are falling backwards, not slapping in breakfall, but rounding your body as your butt, then back, are making contact with the ground, kicking your heels against your own backside to stop your momentum, WHILE accessing your weapon. (this is great, you should try it right now) Or, if unarmed, to change direction of movement, to attack from a downed position.

When down with a person(s) at your head, practice hooking your arm (which one would depend on where the person was, which of his legs was closer to you in your field of peripheral vision, and maybe which arm/hand you access a weapon with) and spinning on your back to change position relative to the enemy.

Reading this, or any part of this, takes a hell of a lot longer than any movement you make, especially if you train the movements properly and repeatedly. In the time it takes to read this whole post.....you could have already controlled and defeated four guys and gone home to get a tuna sandwich. (if you don't have to write reports, that is)

There's a bootload more to this, (obviously) but you get the idea. The ground is a part of it. The more experience one has on the ground, the better.

There's a lot of other components, again, obviously, but one that's relevant to this conversation is the "taking away of space". BJJ deals with the taking away of space. His space. In choking, in joint locks, in position, in everything, you are basically taking away space. In standing up against multiples - it's all about taking away space. Their space. To the uninitiated, one might think that facing multiples would mean to move/dance away, but the opposite is true. You move in, you crowd, you vortex them, you create chaos. Chaos is your friend. It is their enemy. If you learn ground fighting you become familiar with the concept of taking away space. It translates to an understanding of taking away space in standing up with multiples.

Groups of people cannot do simple tasks. Untie your shoe. Have your buddy time you with a stopwatch on how long it takes you to tie it. Now take two friends and tie your shoe as a group. Each take a lace, one hold the knot. Again, have someone with a stop watch. Practice all you want.

I could go on for a few pages about multiples, but I'll spare you. If you would like, I'll send you an outline consisting of key notes we use, but it will have to wait a month, I'm in the process of moving and everything is packed in boxes at the moment.

Sorry for the long post. And maybe rethink ground work. It's really good.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven't saved any links, but I can easily dig up some videos that include multiple attackers. I'll try to dig up a few tonight.

Here's a Gracie video, with several short clips of folks ending up on the ground with multiple attackers:

This was posted by PCS, looks like the full version of one of the fights in the Gracies' video:

This one has someone saving him - he was on the ground before the intervention:

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really though...how many of you have actually been on the ground against multiple attackers, in a real world scenario?

You've asked this before. What is the point of the question?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.

How about you?

How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?[/QUOTE

I still stand by original statement...it's might be useful in a one one one scenario.

How do you draw any useful differentiation between the grappling used to get off the ground and the grappling you might use if you chose to stay on the ground? The only difference I can think of would be the submission holds. Everything else in groundwork is equally applicable to escaping to your feet.

How is that not useful when you have multiple attackers?

 

[senseiblackbelt]

Do you actually train because all you do is ask about every single style

yes.