whats the point of grappling arts?

[Buka]

I think there's something in the air today.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Why not train grapplin

I can't think of anything worse than being held on the ground by multiple bad guys without a clue as to how to get back up again. Seems pretty stupid to willfully choose not to learn such an essential skill if you plan on facing multiple attackers.

I never stated you shouldn't learn ground techniques. What I was referring to is a constant defense on the ground. If you are on the ground against multiple attackers, your chances of surviving are diminished

I believe that ground work is important, for getting off the ground and back onto your feet. But continuing the fight on the ground, in a real world scenario, is asinine. But, that thought is due to my own personal experiences.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Really though...how many of you have actually been on the ground against multiple attackers, in a real world scenario?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I never stated you shouldn't learn ground techniques. What I was referring to is a constant defense on the ground. If you are on the ground against multiple attackers, your chances of surviving are diminished

Absolutely, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. I practice and teach BJJ, which is probably the most ground-centric of all the grappling arts, and I teach my students that in a multiple attacker situation they should avoid going to the ground and work to get back to their feet if the fight does go to the ground.

That said, having a solid foundation in ground grappling skills offers your best chance of regaining your feet if you are taken down, whether it's by a single attacker or multiple attackers.

 

[Buka]

I taught Controlling and Defeating Multiple Attackers to Federal Law Enforcement officers and members of Violent Fugitive Arrest squads for thirteen years. Part of the courses dealt with being on the ground (obviously not by choice), what to do there, how to attack from there, how to defend from there and how to regain your feet from there, all the while keeping your side arm and radio secure, and sometimes, coming to the aid of a partner, or protecting a member of the public who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. (if you're wondering about the radio, it's your greatest weapon, it' calls the cavalry)

A working knowledge of ground fighting, it's positions, it's escapes and it's pitfalls were part of the overall training. Without that knowledge - officers were at far greater disadvantages in an already less than ideal tactical battle.

Any knowledge that you can learn will only make your own particular Martial Art and personal fighting ability that much stronger and safer.

 

[Steve]

I never stated you shouldn't learn ground techniques. What I was referring to is a constant defense on the ground. If you are on the ground against multiple attackers, your chances of surviving are diminished

I believe that ground work is important, for getting off the ground and back onto your feet. But continuing the fight on the ground, in a real world scenario, is asinine. But, that thought is due to my own personal experiences.

okay. You answered your own question. Why train on The ground? Because "ground work is important."

 

[Deleted member 34973]

okay. You answered your own question. Why train on The ground? Because "ground work is important."

I didn't ask that question.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I taught Controlling and Defeating Multiple Attackers to Federal Law Enforcement officers and members of Violent Fugitive Arrest squads for thirteen years. Part of the courses dealt with being on the ground (obviously not by choice), what to do there, how to attack from there, how to defend from there and how to regain your feet from there, all the while keeping your side arm and radio secure, and sometimes, coming to the aid of a partner, or protecting a member of the public who was caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. (if you're wondering about the radio, it's your greatest weapon, it' calls the cavalry)

A working knowledge of ground fighting, it's positions, it's escapes and it's pitfalls were part of the overall training. Without that knowledge - officers were at far greater disadvantages in an already less than ideal tactical battle.

Any knowledge that you can learn will only make your own particular Martial Art and personal fighting ability that much stronger and safer.

I am curious, do you have any video demonstrations of these courses? Was the ground work geared towards multiple attackers while on the ground? Not being snide, I really am interested in the structure of the course you taught.

 

[Steve]

I didn't ask that question.

Not overtly but you have addressed your initial statement. You started by saying ground skills have no value and are now acknowledging that they do.

 

[Jujutsuka]

If you are extremely strong, you can

- pick up one guy,
- hold on his ankle,
- swing him like swinging a baseball bat, and
- knock down your opponent one after another.

Don't have clip for that yet.

Haha, I sure wish they would teach ME that trick in jujutsu class!

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Not overtly but you have addressed your initial statement. You started by saying ground skills have no value and are now acknowledging that they do.

Again...I stated against multiple attackers, while remaining on the ground, is not advisable and dangerous. Getting out and up and training for that is justified. One on one, it can be very effective(if you are on the ground) I changed my opinion when I was made aware of the fact, that some commenters were speaking of standing and grappling. Which I believe is effective. But, remaining on the ground or even being taken to the ground, when multiple assailants are attacking you, is asking for a quick trip to the emergency room.

 

[drop bear]

Sounds great in theory, but when you have three or four attackers coming at you continuously, not so much. Just about everything you describe seems to be a one at a time scenario. That's nit the reality of what actually happens. Although I would like to see a demonstration concerning those scenarios, if course minus the waiting your turn to attack.

But, this question is about self defense...and in these types of situations, with more than one attacker jumping on you at the same, its just not a realistic defense.

If you can break free and get up and run, which you should do when faced with multiple attackers, then yes it's useful.
Your grappling examples are correct, but I am pretty sure the OP was speaking of being on the ground. And, a lot of what you used as examples are can be put into the categories of simple escape techniques.

Which are taught in just about every system. But full on ground grappling...not really useful in a multiple attack scenario. Well, at least in my experience.

Lack of ground skill is not very good against 1 person. So not only will you get beat up by multiple oponants you will also get beat up if there is only one guy.

 

[Steve]

Again...I stated against multiple attackers, while remaining on the ground, is not advisable and dangerous. Getting out and up and training for that is justified. One on one, it can be very effective(if you are on the ground) I changed my opinion when I was made aware of the fact, that some commenters were speaking of standing and grappling. Which I believe is effective. But, remaining on the ground or even being taken to the ground, when multiple assailants are attacking you, is asking for a quick trip to the emergency room.

And the sky is blue. And the grass is green

You started off suggesting that learning ground fighting is useless against multiple attacjers. Now you acknowledge that learning ground d fighting is essential against multiple attackers if they choose to take you to the ground.

Ultimately you're deluded if you think that against multiple attackers, you will be skilled enough to choose the context of the altercation. This is dangerously ignorant. Without grappling trainjng, against multiple attackers you will be helpless unless you are competent with both standing and ground grappling.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

And the sky is blue. And the grass is green

You started off suggesting that learning ground fighting is useless against multiple attacjers. Now you acknowledge that learning ground d fighting is essential against multiple attackers if they choose to take you to the ground.

Ultimately you're deluded if you think that against multiple attackers, you will be skilled enough to choose the context of the altercation. This is dangerously ignorant. Without grappling trainjng, against multiple attackers you will be helpless unless you are competent with both standing and ground grappling.

Are you so blinded by your ground system that you can't even read that I stated "if you stay ON the ground against multiple attackers is foolish" why are you deliberately ignoring that statement. Have you even ever been attacked by multiple assailants?

 

[Deleted member 34973]

What I stated is that it is useless to stay on the ground using grappling in a real world scenario and I will stand by that statement.

 

[drop bear]

What I stated is that it is useless to stay on the ground using grappling in a real world scenario and I will stand by that statement.

And how do you avoid staying on the ground against multiple attackers?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Haha, I sure wish they would teach ME that trick in jujutsu class!

In Chinese wrestling, there is a throw called "casting" that you use both hands to hold on both side of your opponent waist belt. You then spin him off the ground in circle like casting a fish net.

In the following clip, a 165 lb guy uses "casting" on a 240 lb guy. If his opponent is about his weight or lighter, he should be able to swing his opponent completely off the ground and in a circle.

 

[drop bear]

Standing up is not really a magical bullet against multiple attackers by the way.

I mean you should never go to ground in a multiple fight because there is a slight chance you will last a bit longer.

Also never go to ground when fighting a grizzly bear. Because it will out weigh you.

As soon as they have numbers they have advantage. So going to ground is risk vs reward. If you are in some sort giant melee. Then you may take a guy down so you can put him out of the fight. Hitting a guy on the deck is better than hitting him standing. If you get caught on the deck then you are in the same sort of trouble.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

And how do you avoid staying on the ground against multiple attackers?

There is no set way. The last time I was on the ground against multiple attackers...I was stabbed. How I got out of it, I stabbed them back.

How about you?

How many in this thread have actually even been in a real life and death scenerio?

 

[Skullpunch]

But, in my opinion, that is as far as Its usefulness goes. It is definitely a one on one system of self defense.

So is everything else other than knife fighting and/or 400 meter dash training.

Seriously, no amount of karate or anything else is going to make me feel particularly good about fighting multiple attackers. Although points of knowing how to fight on the ground in case you end up there against your will are valid, the bottom line is you need to simply avoid this situation at all costs and if you are unfortunate enough to find yourself in it either be prepared to run for your life or defend yourself in pragmatic ways (such as a weapon) that may require legal defense should you come out alive.