Self Defense usage of the Grappling Arts

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by stonewall1350, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. stonewall1350

    stonewall1350 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    This is a question that comes through our gym from time to time, and it is also something I have been pontificating about as well. I know that I watch a lot of videos of street fights, self defense, concealed carry, and so on. And I know that the self defense classes I listen in on frequently discourage grappling. "You are on the ground and you are dead."

    Well. I get that. But it isn't always your choice. So it makes me wonder. Does your class take into account the self defense side of grappling? Mine does not, but I am thinking about learning more. Especially because I'm a concealed carrier, I want every available option before the gun. And while I am well versed in BJJ/Judo, I want to add more in the punch defense and so on. So what do you pontificate about in this area as it relates to self defense?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  2. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,451
    Likes Received:
    2,461
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    I think that word doesn't mean what you think it means.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,353
    Likes Received:
    3,834
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    If you read my recent posts, you'll know that I do approach grappling from a self-defense standpoint.

    Some basic points to cover in that regard:

    Remember that grappling is not just on the ground.
    Distance management is crucial.
    Skill in preventing/negating strikes is crucial.
    Clinching skills are important.
    Practice in safely escaping bad positions on the ground and standing up is just as important as takedown practice.
    Tactical sense - when to engage, when to disengage, environmental awareness, understanding appropriate use of force, etc, etc, can be just as important as technical skill.

    Some more advanced topics:

    Dealing with weapons,
    Dealing with specific environmental considerations
    Dealing with multiple attackers,
    etc
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,871
    Likes Received:
    4,029
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Mma sort of shares similar ideas to self defence In that being on your back getting punched is pretty awful. So standing up becomes a pretty important skill. And that changes the order of positional dominance a bit.

    So guard is no longer a 50/50 half guard is considered more half mount and mostly we will defend into turtle. Rather than re guard. Just because there is more stand up opportunities.

    Punching people on top also opens up a different order of positional dominance. And i don't have to progress a position anywhere near as much. So say knee ride to arm bar? Who cares just punch them. That sort of thing.

    This also adds on to ideas about being taken down. So there are ways of avoiding the traditional breakfall approach or the jump guard. Which will get you back up a bit quicker.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,871
    Likes Received:
    4,029
    Trophy Points:
    308
    As far as standing vs ground vs multiple opponents you are not really safe standing up. As soon as you turn your back on one guy you are open. If they grab you you are in a lot of trouble.

    I have been on both sides of that equation and there is a different set of ideas that i think you should employ.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. KangTsai

    KangTsai 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Messages:
    810
    Likes Received:
    166
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Auckland, New Zealand
    I think the social fearmongering of going to the ground has its points but is still way exaggerated. As for integrating into self defence, that's just applying what you know to what can happen. E.G. there's another guy around the corner - make it quick; the grapple-ee has a gun - do the best you can to stop them from getting to it.
     
  7. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,217
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Houston
    A couple thoughts, unrelated to each other but to the O/P....

    In my/our classes, I do teach grappling as a SD tactical solution for folks, and I find that oftentimes women have absolutely no idea what it is like to be "held down." It's not something that they have ever experienced (hopefully) as such is so culturally/socially stepped on, i.e. little boys don't wrestle with little girls (usually, unless you've got a big family or tons of friends the same age growing up as little kids, I suppose).

    I usually begin with some light discussion on the idea of, "You don't want to get knocked down, but when it happens, let's learn how we deal with it." In order to start the talk in a way that the ladies int in the class won't be too.... shoot I don't know how to say this without making someone mad at me so I'll just write it out, getting scared (guys get scared, too) we always start with kesagatame (scarf hold) from judo. Just lying on her back, the training partner also on the ground, but with chest wall up against chest wall, facing one another, the near hand holding the person on the ground's closer arm against the person on top's side, the other arm going around the person's neck.

    I use kesa to talk about body positions, and movement, and to talk about parallels and differences in movement while standing (walking-running) on one's feet vs. movement while on the ground. We do the very first, 1st day of judo class everywhere escape from kesa until everyone's had some success with more than one person -- nspecifically including ladies escaping from men who outsize them being on top.

    And then, we move right to the ugly one to deal with (not to trained people). Mount. Guard is bad enough if not trained, but mount is horrible if you are: A) smaller; and B) have no idea at all how to get away. Think 220 lb guy with bad intentions on top via mount on 120 lb woman with no training. Catch the wrists, punch in the short ribs to cause breathing difficulty, and... it goes to bad places.

    The thing is, that with just a bit of training and knowledge, drilled often, that position and others like it, can be either defeated to the point where the person can get away, or the attacker gives up frustrated. I know, I'm painting a rosy picture here, but that's how you have to teach it, not to be Debbie-Downer. It takes ferocious will to get a much larger opponent off of you if they've already established a dominant position and you've not the advanced skillset to deal with it. So, I give them a beginning tool to use, then scare the bejeezus out of them to let them know about the problem before they really need to have to deal with it, then slowly we work our way through it.

    The above is Thought #1.

    Thought #2 is that, turtling up against someone who doesn't care about rules isn't a good idea, as you just gave them your back, and kidney and spinal strikes are... debilitating.

    Thought #3... for an extra, is that the other guy or guys/gals, are sometimes not "around the corner" but are right there at the same place. Even if your BJJ is whiz-bang and your able to wind the one you are fighting with in short order, do yu believe that the other one, or two, won't do anything while you are pulling their buddy's arms off or choking him until his eyes pop out? Nope, they'll step in, literally, and most likely you'll feel kicks. That is no fun at all.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. stonewall1350

    stonewall1350 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    How so?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  9. stonewall1350

    stonewall1350 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2009
    Messages:
    230
    Likes Received:
    38
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    Florida
    I'm honestly taking notes on that lol. Putting some of that in my phone. :)


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  10. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,217
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Houston
    Pontificating.

    I think that was the word. I've not noted it being used as often in one short set of words before, so it was jarring, but I think you did use it correctly... but perhaps unintentionally.

    To "pontificate" = express one's opinions in a way considered annoyingly pompous and dogmatic; or (in the Roman Catholic Church) officiate as bishop, especially at Mas.

    It didn't sound like you were in church, so.... I can see why he said that he didn't think that word means what You think it means.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,788
    Likes Received:
    6,074
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Grappling isn't just ground work. Grappling is about controlling the attacker's body. It can be used to stay off the ground, get them to the ground, control them on the ground, or get up off the ground.

    I have experience with striking and grappling. Grappling has been my response in each self-defense use.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,451
    Likes Received:
    2,461
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Michigan
    I suspect you meant 'pondering'.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,731
    Likes Received:
    1,504
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    IRT grappling is self defense oriented. ie: non sporting So we spend all of our time when grappling looking at it from a personal protection stand point. We have a BJJ base with wrestling and FMA and Silat ground fighting mixed in. Everything revolves around controlling position and dealing with potential weapons that can come into play. We account for times when an opponent might reach for a knife, firearm, etc. or already has it out. Obviously, we don't want to grapple unless it is a one on one situation. Yet, one must be prepared...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,217
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Houston
     
  15. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    8,984
    Likes Received:
    5,593
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    The ground. Sometimes it's made to sound like a plane in another dimension. "It's not the place to be in a real fight, Other people will kick you, No good against multiples, It's harder to get away."

    It's just the ground for God sakes. It's been there, in contact with us, almost every minute of our lives. The place not to be in a real fight is on an escalator, or the edge of a building, or in car. The ground is just fine.

    We used to train the ground in a lot of ways. Being surrounded by people who were going to kick or stomp (big difference) or jump on. You have to train using your arms to turn yourself (your feet) towards all directions, you have to use and train various umbrella' tehniques to shield your head. You have to practice quick, violent rolls towards surrounding legs. And you have to do that carefully to avoid injuries while training - you'll hyper-extend their knees and hyperextend/crush ankles if you go wild.

    There's some great ways to train on the ground - or more appropriately, fight on the ground while getting up. And let's be honest here - how many of you actually practice getting up as fast as humanly possible? I'm talking the ground has just caught fire getting up. And how often do you do it? Because you should.

    In any dojo I ever taught - getting up from any exercise, or two man set, or while sparring (after setting defensive/offensive guard - then deciding to get up) or stretching (other than really long splits) is done as if the ground just caught fire. I can't actually envision any other way off getting up off the ground in a dojo. Same way you get up in a fight, when you do get up, really f'n fast. I think you're nuts if you don't practice that.
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    15,879
    Likes Received:
    3,701
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    I like to pretend the ground is molten lava, and move around the living room without touching it.

    Makes my wife mad, for some reason.
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  17. marques

    marques Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2015
    Messages:
    1,138
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Essex, UK
    If we are talking about self-defence, strictly, we need a range of tools (for different force levels). And sometimes one should not do more than 'grab' which doesn't imply going to the ground, forcibly. (Or it was not our choice, as you mentioned.) Grappling AS a place in self-defence. As well as striking.
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    16,871
    Likes Received:
    4,029
    Trophy Points:
    308
    See I told you that post was deep. The concepts just keep coming round.
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    20,788
    Likes Received:
    6,074
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Two significant ones, unless you count fights with my brother growing up.

    In the first (no Aikido at that point), I was grabbed from behind unaware and pulled off something close to seionage (I really need to go back and try to figure out if that's the right technique - I recognize it in the NGA curriculum), so never really had to reach out in that one. In the other, I never had to actually take them down, just get them off me (getting too close and grabbing to transition from the "monkey dance" to a fight). I'd say what I did drew on my grappling, though I can't really point to a technique. In NGA, we train to use atemi inside many of the techniques (I actually have a section of the curriculum where I expect students to make that their focus for a while), so there was a striking element to "release the grip and move them away" that happened.

    There were other encounters I could count in, but they were limited attacks - bullies trying to do stuff they shouldn't do. In the cases where they were trying to pick me up or move me, my grappling training let me keep control of my connection to the ground (in other words, they couldn't pick me up) in all but one case, and I remember getting out of that one, too, but no how. In the cases where they were bullying someone else and I stepped in, I used basic grappling principles to move them away from their intended victim (I was a VERY skinny kid, so just yanking them off wouldn't have been effective on these guys) - just weight-shifting and controlling their center, basically.
     
  20. JP3

    JP3 Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    1,217
    Likes Received:
    612
    Trophy Points:
    303
    Location:
    Houston
    It is interesting how little energy it really takes, if one is of a mind to only use a little. Put in the proper place, in the proper direction.

    The problem is getting amped up and going Mongo on people. It's sort of difficult to stay loose, relaxed and ... well ... bored enough to really let the aiki do it's thing. Even though I know it will, if I just let it. Such is the path.

    A journey, not a destination and all that.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page