Taegue Il Jang application

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Kong Soo Do, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I've said this earlier and will say it again; this is a basic form taught to white belt students. There really isn't a whole lot to work with as far as hidden applications. As a hapkidoist, I can redirect some of those movements to get a grapple here or a lock there, but the level of student for whom iljang is designed for would be far from ready to explore such things.

    Yijang isn't really any better, with the only substantive difference being a greater variety of targets. Even samjang, which incorporates open hand parrying and more than two shifts in stance, would be a poor choice; at this level the students are still learning to correctly execute those techniques.


    Taegeuk sajang would be a much better candidate for this. It contains a variety of open and closed hand offenses and defenses, a greater variety of kicks, and a greater variety of stances.
     
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  2. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Don't recall...been kicked out of there a few months ago. However, I don't recall any seniors coming on to MW. I would recommend that perhaps you join TKD.net and bring up this topic. There are plenty of seniors/pioneers on that list that may give some insight. At least they have always been helpful to me whenever I approached them.
     
  3. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Unfortunately, he is making an apples to oranges comparison. The pioneers that he critiqued were not making evaluations of Okinawan kata.
    My assessment of his lack of knowledge regarding the taegeuk pumse is based on his flawed descriptions of them, which included incorrect characterizations of the nature of certain movements, an incorrect statement about which part of the arm/hand was used in makki, and what the makki was being applied against.

    This is the equivalent of him saying he's been somewhere he hasn't, then giving travel advice to others, but a local resident is pointing out that the location doesn't look like that and that the roads are not laid out in that manner.
     
  4. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    You've never been kicked out of MW Jeremy. You created two accounts but only posted with one of them. The one you've never used was removed, but this has no effect on the one that you have and can use.
     
  5. d1jinx

    d1jinx Master Black Belt

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    I am a KKW 5th Dan who has trained with some Korean seniors, would that not count as merit here? it seemed to count over there!

    After all, the BEST statement ever told to me was from GM Hwa Chong: "AH BULL-CHIT"
     
  6. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Accepted and not a problem. :)

    Then let me clarify, my point is on the actual movement sequence regardless of what form it may be contained in.

    Shotokan isn't the only art involved, some others did go to 10th Dan. However, in regards to Shotokan specifically I'm willing to see the point your making. If it will make the thread flow smoother, and soothe the feelings of some individuals then I'll simply ask that that portion of my comments be disregarded and consider it retracted.

    I'm well aware of your research, which is why you had your own section on MW devoted entirely to your research. It was appreciated then and still is appreciated.
     
  7. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Actually I was kicked out. When I went to log in some time ago it told me that the adminstrator has disabled my account. I had only one account there under the same user name that I use where ever I go on these forums.
     
  8. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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  9. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I took a look to make sure, the Miguk70, which has the same email listed as your miguksaram account was disabled since it was an never-used account. The miguksaram should be fine if/when you use it. If it still isn't, shoot me a msg but it looks to be fine.

    Perhaps you know of an updated video to post for discussion? And as I mentioned, if anyone wants to submit a video or link or whatever, to any form they'd like to discuss, they should feel free.

    Wasn't that you that had a section where they were posting articles for different publications? I don't recall the name of it off hand...
     
  10. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I just checked the miguksaram again and it seems to work now...cool.

    Already posted on the first page in my first response. I believe that is the most recent version of the form. At least I hope it is because that is what I have been teaching my students. :)

    I saw a section in there under TKD that had Dan Burdick's information in there, but nothing that I have posted.
     
  11. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    If there is an "us vs. them" mentality, it is because you and other non kukki taekwondo people set it up that way. Kukki taekwondo is about unification and acceptance. Those that are opposed to kukki taekwondo by definition are not, with their complaints and criticizing of everything. One of the reasons why I am posting again is to prevent future abuse of kukki taekwondoin in this forum. It stops now.


    No one needs to ask you. You have already stated that you are not kukki taekwondo. It is evident in the things that you post. There was a story you told about a form which you didn't know the name of which had double side kicks in it. Your point was that you felt the first side kick would be to the knee and would bring the opponent down to his knees, and the second one would be a low kick to the head of the kneeling opponent. Overlooking the fact that your "application" of the double side kick is completely wrong, more revealing is the fact that you didn't know the name of that form with the double side kick in it, someone which every 1st poom in korea who got their rank in one year knows. Things like that.
     
  12. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    This comment again shows your lack of experience with kukki taekwondo in general, and the modern competition training methods in particular. Many practitioners who do hogu drills for the first time end up feeling beat up and extremely winded within a matter of minutes. Do hogu drills for a while and perhaps you will see this type of training exist "outside of the Ryus".
     
  13. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Good deal :)

    I could be wrong. I just seem to remember you in a special section with Bruce Sims, and a Steve (can't remember last name) who had a combatives section. Point is that as far back as I remember you've always been welcome.

    I completely missed your vid posting, I'll have to take a look. Thank you.
     
  14. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Here is a quote from a book entitled Customs and Culture of Okinawa, first published in 1955:

    *

    Psychology

    Psychologists and sociologists marvel at the Okinawans' amiable disposition. Though living under crowded conditions, these people have a remarkably low crime rate, a high birth rate, and suicides are practically unknown in the long history of the island. Blood pressure is generally low, perhaps due to excessive amounts of rice consumed in their diet, and insanity is rare. The people are not easily frustrated or excited by chimeras, as is so common in our Western world. Most of the babies are breast fed and constantly tended by the mother or an older brother or sister, which results in a great feeling of security as the child attains maturity.

    Because of the training which they receive at home and their religious beliefs, which teach them to respect their elders and venerate their forefathers, the Okinawan children cause their teachers practically no discipline problems. So thoroughly has obedience to one's superiors been inculcated into their lives, it is a common sight to see a group of several hundred children on a field trip or an excursion causing almost no noise or commontion.

    *

    Does that sound like a culture that would put self defense training at the forefront of their minds? I would think these types of cultural and psychological factors would have just as much or more of an influence on "applications" than westernized attitudes with regard to personal safety and the need for self defense.
     
  15. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    No problem with your position, as long as you realize the same when people point out your inexperience and lack of knowledge in an area.
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Did you have the same issue when learning Goju Ryu, having to purge your Jhoon Rhee habits? What are you purging now as you incorporate the kukkiwon poomsae into what you do?
     
  17. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Sorry, but your comments early in this thread spoke about the kwan founders who studied karate in Japan, and they being of low rank and therefore too inexperienced to have learned the stuff you and your cohorts discussed on MW. So no, you have not spoken to any of those that studied in Japan and came back to open dojang in the 1940s, and therefore you once again have no experience in this area.
     
  18. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    And you as well. :)
     
  19. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    The transition from Jhoon Rhee TKD to Goju wasn't hard to make, probably because I had paid very little attention to the small details up until that point. I don't want to bag on my first instructor, but the level of training I received was night and day different. I didn't just take class from my sensei - I received a martial education from him.

    As for the KKW poomsae, let's just say it is a process. One I expect to last for years if not the rest of my life.
     
  20. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Perhaps not, but I certainly haven't said that a majority of the people in the Ryukyu Islands practiced Te. I'm sure it was an activity sought after by a small segment of the population...Unless you have different information? I do argue that the guys in the late 1800s took their karate seriously and it was very much for developing fighting skills rather than any other purpose.

    I don't completely follow what you are saying here, but I can say my teacher from that same culture taught me umpteen ways to break joints, smash bones, and generally cause pain and other physical trauma. I'm fairly confident that was the purpose of karate before the 1910s or so when the "Do" aspects began to be emphasized.
     

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