Taegue Il Jang application

[Daniel Sullivan]

11 pages to discuss the meaning behind:

down block Punch
down block Punch
down block Punch
Inside middle block punch
inside middle block punch
down block Punch
high block front snap kick punch
high block front snap kick punch
down block
punch.

yup. hidden meaning there. or NOT.

Maybe its in the stances.

let see:

walking stance
walking stance

walking stance
walking stance


Forward stance

walking stance
walking stance

walking stance
walking stance

Forward stance

walking stance
walking stance

walking stance
walking stance

forward stance
forward stance

nope still nothing.

how about the turns?

lets see:

L
R
F
R
L
F
L
R
B
B


Hmmm, still dont see it.

maybe if i take the 3rd letter of each word, arrange them in a pattern, then pick out what I "think" it may be I can come up with... nope still nothing.


WHAT AM I MISSING???? besides the point?


(I used the ENGLISH terms for those who are not familiar with the Korean terminology.)

I've said this earlier and will say it again; this is a basic form taught to white belt students. There really isn't a whole lot to work with as far as hidden applications. As a hapkidoist, I can redirect some of those movements to get a grapple here or a lock there, but the level of student for whom iljang is designed for would be far from ready to explore such things.

Yijang isn't really any better, with the only substantive difference being a greater variety of targets. Even samjang, which incorporates open hand parrying and more than two shifts in stance, would be a poor choice; at this level the students are still learning to correctly execute those techniques.


Taegeuk sajang would be a much better candidate for this. It contains a variety of open and closed hand offenses and defenses, a greater variety of kicks, and a greater variety of stances.

 

[miguksaram]

Yes sir, I have. On MW we had several members that were between fourth and seventh Dan that discussed this topic at length. These were people that had trained directly with different Korean GM's and had those discussions with them as well. And there were Masters from Tang Soo Do and Hapkido participating in that thread as well. In fact, it was one of the longest running threads ever on MW and led, in part, to much of the content of Mr. O'Neills book (you can see a list of many of the participants in the forward portion of the book. It's been several years, but I believe Jeremy was a part of that discussion. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I'd have to go back and look at the whole thing.

Don't recall...been kicked out of there a few months ago. However, I don't recall any seniors coming on to MW. I would recommend that perhaps you join TKD.net and bring up this topic. There are plenty of seniors/pioneers on that list that may give some insight. At least they have always been helpful to me whenever I approached them.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How is this different from you bringing into question what the pioneers knew? I guess this answers my questions about how you feel about people making uninformative remarks about your training and knowledge.

Unfortunately, he is making an apples to oranges comparison. The pioneers that he critiqued were not making evaluations of Okinawan kata.
My assessment of his lack of knowledge regarding the taegeuk pumse is based on his flawed descriptions of them, which included incorrect characterizations of the nature of certain movements, an incorrect statement about which part of the arm/hand was used in makki, and what the makki was being applied against.

This is the equivalent of him saying he's been somewhere he hasn't, then giving travel advice to others, but a local resident is pointing out that the location doesn't look like that and that the roads are not laid out in that manner.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Don't recall...been kicked out of there a few months ago.

You've never been kicked out of MW Jeremy. You created two accounts but only posted with one of them. The one you've never used was removed, but this has no effect on the one that you have and can use.

 

[d1jinx]

Don't recall...been kicked out of there a few months ago. However, I don't recall any seniors coming on to MW. I would recommend that perhaps you join TKD.net and bring up this topic. There are plenty of seniors/pioneers on that list that may give some insight. At least they have always been helpful to me whenever I approached them.

I am a KKW 5th Dan who has trained with some Korean seniors, would that not count as merit here? it seemed to count over there!

After all, the BEST statement ever told to me was from GM Hwa Chong: "AH BULL-CHIT"

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I do owe you one appology, the second reference to the outdated video was not made by you, but someone quoting your original posting which showed the video. So for saying you are insisting on using an outdated video, I apologize.

Accepted and not a problem.

Now current or outdated is the point because you are making reference to a specific poomsae.

Then let me clarify, my point is on the actual movement sequence regardless of what form it may be contained in.

Yes, by giving the image that because they held 1st through 3rd dans they were low rank. Back then the highest rank was 5th dan held by Funakoshi Sensei.

Shotokan isn't the only art involved, some others did go to 10th Dan. However, in regards to Shotokan specifically I'm willing to see the point your making. If it will make the thread flow smoother, and soothe the feelings of some individuals then I'll simply ask that that portion of my comments be disregarded and consider it retracted.

Case in point is my thread about the Koryo dynasty. It debunks the snapshot that the Silla dynasty, which many TKD practitioners are lead to believe, was such a great time in Korean history. Why? Because we only got a snap shot of the surface. Upon reading you find out that the Silla dynasty was pretty much full of corruption and internal strife and a lot of opporession of the poor. Not quite the romantic era that many of us are taught through our TKD studies.

I'm well aware of your research, which is why you had your own section on MW devoted entirely to your research. It was appreciated then and still is appreciated.

 

[miguksaram]

You've never been kicked out of MW Jeremy. You created two accounts but only posted with one of them. The one you've never used was removed, but this has no effect on the one that you have and can use.

Actually I was kicked out. When I went to log in some time ago it told me that the adminstrator has disabled my account. I had only one account there under the same user name that I use where ever I go on these forums.

 

[miguksaram]

Accepted and not a problem. [/quoted]
Cool

Then let me clarify, my point is on the actual movement sequence regardless of what form it may be contained in.

Which I can accept, but again the point is that we are looking at one specific poomsae. If we are to break it down then we need to look at the most recent version. Things were changed for a reason, and knowing that reason and what the changes are could have an impact on how interprets the boonsae.

Shotokan isn't the only art involved, some others did go to 10th Dan. However, in regards to Shotokan specifically I'm willing to see the point your making. If it will make the thread flow smoother, and soothe the feelings of some individuals then I'll simply ask that that portion of my comments be disregarded and consider it retracted.

Cool

I'm well aware of your research, which is why you had your own section on MW devoted entirely to your research. It was appreciated then and still is appreciated.

We are talking about Martial Warriror here right? I don't recall a section devoted to that but then again, I have been kicked in the head so many times I some times don't recall my breakfast so....cool.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Actually I was kicked out. When I went to log in some time ago it told me that the adminstrator has disabled my account. I had only one account there under the same user name that I use where ever I go on these forums.

I took a look to make sure, the Miguk70, which has the same email listed as your miguksaram account was disabled since it was an never-used account. The miguksaram should be fine if/when you use it. If it still isn't, shoot me a msg but it looks to be fine.

Which I can accept, but again the point is that we are looking at one specific poomsae. If we are to break it down then we need to look at the most recent version. Things were changed for a reason, and knowing that reason and what the changes are could have an impact on how interprets the boonsae.

Perhaps you know of an updated video to post for discussion? And as I mentioned, if anyone wants to submit a video or link or whatever, to any form they'd like to discuss, they should feel free.

We are talking about Martial Warriror here right? I don't recall a section devoted to that but then again, I have been kicked in the head so many times I some times don't recall my breakfast so....cool.

Wasn't that you that had a section where they were posting articles for different publications? I don't recall the name of it off hand...

 

[miguksaram]

I took a look to make sure, the Miguk70, which has the same email listed as your miguksaram account was disabled since it was an never-used account. The miguksaram should be fine if/when you use it. If it still isn't, shoot me a msg but it looks to be fine.

I just checked the miguksaram again and it seems to work now...cool.

Perhaps you know of an updated video to post for discussion? And as I mentioned, if anyone wants to submit a video or link or whatever, to any form they'd like to discuss, they should feel free.

Already posted on the first page in my first response. I believe that is the most recent version of the form. At least I hope it is because that is what I have been teaching my students.

Wasn't that you that had a section where they were posting articles for different publications? I don't recall the name of it off hand...

I saw a section in there under TKD that had Dan Burdick's information in there, but nothing that I have posted.

 

[puunui]

I see this as more of an 'us vs. them' mentality unfortunately.

If there is an "us vs. them" mentality, it is because you and other non kukki taekwondo people set it up that way. Kukki taekwondo is about unification and acceptance. Those that are opposed to kukki taekwondo by definition are not, with their complaints and criticizing of everything. One of the reasons why I am posting again is to prevent future abuse of kukki taekwondoin in this forum. It stops now.

I've seen several declare that I don't know this or that form. Yet they've never met me. They've never seen me train. They've never asked if I know this or that form.

No one needs to ask you. You have already stated that you are not kukki taekwondo. It is evident in the things that you post. There was a story you told about a form which you didn't know the name of which had double side kicks in it. Your point was that you felt the first side kick would be to the knee and would bring the opponent down to his knees, and the second one would be a low kick to the head of the kneeling opponent. Overlooking the fact that your "application" of the double side kick is completely wrong, more revealing is the fact that you didn't know the name of that form with the double side kick in it, someone which every 1st poom in korea who got their rank in one year knows. Things like that.

 

[puunui]

This kind of conditioning can definately be overdone. An instructor has to know what he/she is doing and have the best interest of the student in mind. When done correctly, it produces a very strong individual indeed. I've not seen this sort of toughness outside of the Ryus that incorporate this type of training.

This comment again shows your lack of experience with kukki taekwondo in general, and the modern competition training methods in particular. Many practitioners who do hogu drills for the first time end up feeling beat up and extremely winded within a matter of minutes. Do hogu drills for a while and perhaps you will see this type of training exist "outside of the Ryus".

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I just checked the miguksaram again and it seems to work now...cool.

Good deal

I saw a section in there under TKD that had Dan Burdick's information in there, but nothing that I have posted.

I could be wrong. I just seem to remember you in a special section with Bruce Sims, and a Steve (can't remember last name) who had a combatives section. Point is that as far back as I remember you've always been welcome.

I completely missed your vid posting, I'll have to take a look. Thank you.

 

[puunui]

Love to hear if she comes up with anything. My understanding is that crime stats simply weren't kept for that era, circa 1850 - 1910 when when first Matsumura and then Higashionna were in their prime, matured, and took disciples.

Here is a quote from a book entitled Customs and Culture of Okinawa, first published in 1955:

*

Psychology

Psychologists and sociologists marvel at the Okinawans' amiable disposition. Though living under crowded conditions, these people have a remarkably low crime rate, a high birth rate, and suicides are practically unknown in the long history of the island. Blood pressure is generally low, perhaps due to excessive amounts of rice consumed in their diet, and insanity is rare. The people are not easily frustrated or excited by chimeras, as is so common in our Western world. Most of the babies are breast fed and constantly tended by the mother or an older brother or sister, which results in a great feeling of security as the child attains maturity.

Because of the training which they receive at home and their religious beliefs, which teach them to respect their elders and venerate their forefathers, the Okinawan children cause their teachers practically no discipline problems. So thoroughly has obedience to one's superiors been inculcated into their lives, it is a common sight to see a group of several hundred children on a field trip or an excursion causing almost no noise or commontion.

*

Does that sound like a culture that would put self defense training at the forefront of their minds? I would think these types of cultural and psychological factors would have just as much or more of an influence on "applications" than westernized attitudes with regard to personal safety and the need for self defense.

 

[puunui]

I stated that, which exceptons, they were low or no rank karateka. Is this an error? I also stated that an instructor, any instructor cannot teach what they themselves do not know? Is this in error? Do you teach things you don't know Jeremy? I also stated that I don't believe that, in general, they had the experience to know any/most/all of the nuances contained in kata which was then reflected in their interpretations of the forms they created (certainly not to the extend of their karate seniors). Is this in error? This isn't 'putting them down'. This is simply stating fact(s). And as mentioned previously, I've stated quite clearly that no 'put down' was intended. And since I'm the one stating that, to take it any other way is solely the responsibility of the reciever.

No problem with your position, as long as you realize the same when people point out your inexperience and lack of knowledge in an area.

 

[puunui]

Absolutely. I spent almost a year trying to purge Goju traits when I ran the Chang Hon forms. I was nowhere near total success despite trying very, very hard to do so. That's why I've always been puzzled when people say they practice multiple sets of TKD forms but perform them according to each individual standard.

Did you have the same issue when learning Goju Ryu, having to purge your Jhoon Rhee habits? What are you purging now as you incorporate the kukkiwon poomsae into what you do?

 

[puunui]

Yes sir, I have. On MW we had several members that were between fourth and seventh Dan that discussed this topic at length. These were people that had trained directly with different Korean GM's and had those discussions with them as well. And there were Masters from Tang Soo Do and Hapkido participating in that thread as well. In fact, it was one of the longest running threads ever on MW and led, in part, to much of the content of Mr. O'Neills book (you can see a list of many of the participants in the forward portion of the book. It's been several years, but I believe Jeremy was a part of that discussion. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I'd have to go back and look at the whole thing.

Sorry, but your comments early in this thread spoke about the kwan founders who studied karate in Japan, and they being of low rank and therefore too inexperienced to have learned the stuff you and your cohorts discussed on MW. So no, you have not spoken to any of those that studied in Japan and came back to open dojang in the 1940s, and therefore you once again have no experience in this area.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No problem with your position, as long as you realize the same when people point out your inexperience and lack of knowledge in an area.

And you as well.

 

[dancingalone]

Did you have the same issue when learning Goju Ryu, having to purge your Jhoon Rhee habits? What are you purging now as you incorporate the kukkiwon poomsae into what you do?

The transition from Jhoon Rhee TKD to Goju wasn't hard to make, probably because I had paid very little attention to the small details up until that point. I don't want to bag on my first instructor, but the level of training I received was night and day different. I didn't just take class from my sensei - I received a martial education from him.

As for the KKW poomsae, let's just say it is a process. One I expect to last for years if not the rest of my life.

 

[dancingalone]

Does that sound like a culture that would put self defense training at the forefront of their minds?

Perhaps not, but I certainly haven't said that a majority of the people in the Ryukyu Islands practiced Te. I'm sure it was an activity sought after by a small segment of the population...Unless you have different information? I do argue that the guys in the late 1800s took their karate seriously and it was very much for developing fighting skills rather than any other purpose.

I would think these types of cultural and psychological factors would have just as much or more of an influence on "applications" than westernized attitudes with regard to personal safety and the need for self defense.

I don't completely follow what you are saying here, but I can say my teacher from that same culture taught me umpteen ways to break joints, smash bones, and generally cause pain and other physical trauma. I'm fairly confident that was the purpose of karate before the 1910s or so when the "Do" aspects began to be emphasized.