Taegue Il Jang application

[chrispillertkd]

Perhaps not, but I certainly haven't said that a majority of the people in the Ryukyu Islands practiced Te. I'm sure it was an activity sought after by a small segment of the population...

I don't completely follow what you are saying here, but I can say my teacher from that same culture taught me umpteen ways to break joints, smash bones, and generally cause pain and other physical trauma. I'm fairly confident that was the purpose of karate before the 1910s or so when the "Do" aspects began to be emphasized.

I was under the impression that the majority of martial arts were not "marketed" for popular consumption until rather recently. I have not heard that the Okinawans did so until somewhat recently when karate was introduced into the physical education curriculum in schools. Do you have any idea of the relationship between the introduction of the "Do" aspect of things and the trend to popularize training?

Also, do you know of any karate ryu that didn't "sign on" to the idea of karate becoming karate-do?

From my experience in CMA it seems that a greater emphasis is placed on students being virtuous to be accepted for training rather than training making one a better person (though this idea isn't completely absent). In Taekwon-Do there is a much greater emphasis on developing certain character traits through the training itself than I experienced in Kung-Fu. I'd be interested in hearing your thought on how Okinawan karate addresses this.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

I was under the impression that the majority of martial arts were not "marketed" for popular consumption until rather recently. I have not heard that the Okinawans did so until somewhat recently when karate was introduced into the physical education curriculum in schools. Do you have any idea of the relationship between the introduction of the "Do" aspect of things and the trend to popularize training?

I don't know anything other than the broad details most know about already. Itosu Sensei already was heading in that direction some say with the introduction of his Pinan kata, these forms intended to be easier to learn for kids still in school (picture 9th grade on, not primary school). If you read his famous letter however, the one in which the 10 Precepts are written, it's apparent that karate was no mere exercise vehicle for him, though as he states it is an important benefit.

1. Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit; it can be used to protect one's family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian.

​

2. The purpose of karate is to make the muscles and bones hard as rock and to use the hands and legs as spears. If children were to begin training naturally in military prowess while in elementary school, then they would be well suited for military service. Remember the words attributed to the Duke of Wellington after he defeated Napoleon, “Today's battle was won on the playing fields of our schools”.

​

3. Karate cannot be quickly learned. Like a slow moving bull, it eventually travels a thousand leagues. If one trains diligently for one or two hours every day, then in three or four years one will see a change in physique. Those who train in this fashion will discover the deeper principles of karate.​

4. In karate, training of the hands and feet are important, so you should train thoroughly with a sheaf of straw (#). In order to do this, drop your shoulders, open your lungs, muster your strength, grip the floor with your feet, and concentrate your energy into your lower abdomen. Practice using each arm one to two hundred times each day.

​

5. When you practice the stances of karate, be sure to keep your back straight, lower your shoulders, put strength in your legs, stand firmly, and drop your energy into your lower abdomen.

​

6. Practice each of the techniques of karate repeatedly. Learn the explanations of every technique well, and decide when and in what manner to apply them when needed. Enter, counter, withdraw is the rule for torite.​

7. You must decide if karate is for your health or to aid your duty.​

8. When you train, do so as if on the battlefield. Your eyes should glare, shoulders drop, and body harden. You should always train with intensity and spirit as if actually facing the enemy, and in this way you will naturally be ready.

​

9. If you use up your strength to excess in karate training, this will cause you to lose the energy in your lower abdomen and will be harmful to your body. Your face and eyes will turn red. Be careful to control your training.​

10. In the past, many masters of karate have enjoyed long lives. Karate aids in developing the bones and muscles. It helps the digestion as well as the circulation. If karate should be introduced, beginning in the elementary schools, then we will produce many men each capable of defeating ten assailants.


​

Chojun Miyagi Sensei was also part of the evolution to "Do". He participated in creating a few kata along with Shosin Nagamine Sensei that were meant to be universal kata unifying the Shorin & Shorei branches of karate as a bridging pathway to the other kata and I believe these hookiyu kata likewise were meant for usage in schools before the outbreak of war ended the project.

Miyagi wrote an essay that has been translated through the efforts of some Hawaiian historians (I believe puunui has said he knows them well). In it he makes some interesting remarks about this transition in karate. http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/outline.html

3. Karate circles in the past​

We also do not know origin of the name "karate", but it is true that the name "karate" was made recently. In the old days it was called "Te". At that time people used to practice karate secretly, and a masters taught a few advanced Kata out of all the Kata only to his best disciple. If he had no suitable disciple, he never taught them anyone, and eventually such Kata have completely died out. As a result, there are many Kata which were not handed down. In about middle of Meiji period (1868-1912), prominent karate masters abolished the old way of secrecy. Karate was opened to the public, so it was soon recognized by society. It was dawn in the development of karate. In accordance with the rapidly progressing culture, karate was also recognized as physical education, and it was adopted as one of the teaching subjects at school. Therefore, at last karate has won the social approval.​

​

4. How we teach karate at present.​

​

According to oral history, in the old days, the teaching policy of karate put emphasis on self-defence techniques. With just a motto of "no first attack in karate", teachers showed their students the moral aspects. However, I heard that in reality they tended to neglect such moral principles. So gradually the teaching policy was improved with the change of the times. Now we discontinued and abolished the wrong tradition of so-called "body first, and mind second", and we made our way toward Tao of fighting arts or the truth of karate. Eventually we have obtained the correct motto "mind first, and body second" which means karate and Zen are the same.​

Also, do you know of any karate ryu that didn't "sign on" to the idea of karate becoming karate-do?

It's hard to say really without having trained in all of them under a senior native master. I'm sure you've noticed the karate brought back to the United States by westerners tends to be full of the personal development stuff. Whether that was emphasized by their Asian teachers or evolved over time in the US in response to business needs, I can't say with any surety. I do think some styles like Shotokan and Wado have been more influenced by Zen, notwithstanding the previous bit about Goju-ryu from Miyagi Sensei, and it's not uncommon to see teachers of these styles adopt and promulgate some aspects of Zen in their classes.

Personally, although we had a dojo kun in own line of Goju-ryu and we recited it before most classes, it really wasn't analysed in any great way. In fact, I can count on 1 hand the number of times my sensei said anything about the dojo kun at all.

I am planning a trip to Okinawa next year for a three week stay and I am setting up training opportunities judiciously with senior karate-ka. It will be interesting to see what they choose to show me. In my inquiries I'm asking for them to give me the regular training experiences someone on the islands would receive, rituals and all.

From my experience in CMA it seems that a greater emphasis is placed on students being virtuous to be accepted for training rather than training making one a better person (though this idea isn't completely absent). In Taekwon-Do there is a much greater emphasis on developing certain character traits through the training itself than I experienced in Kung-Fu. I'd be interested in hearing your thought on how Okinawan karate addresses this.

Well, all I have is personal experience. My teacher did not accept new students casually. Only if he had room, only if he thought you would be diligent. In fact, he would turn away people I thought would have made great additions to our group based on their physical attributes and prior experience. I don't think he was looking for any moral qualities. With that said our training included nothing remotely like Zen Buddhism, nothing like seen in ATA TKD schools where students are encouraged to be positive, kind people.

As I said, Okinawan karate in the US is filled with this type of stuff. Is it purely a western construct, an American thing in reaction to our cultural needs to educate youth in civility and good character? I don't know. Anecdotally, I believe it is from what I have observed in my own training along with what I have seen in dojo run by people also with close ties to a living Okinawan. I hope to learn more about it when I travel next year.

 

[puunui]

1. Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit; it can be used to protect one's family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian.

​

2. The purpose of karate is to make the muscles and bones hard as rock and to use the hands and legs as spears. If children were to begin training naturally in military prowess while in elementary school, then they would be well suited for military service. Remember the words attributed to the Duke of Wellington after he defeated Napoleon, “Today's battle was won on the playing fields of our schools”.

​

3. Karate cannot be quickly learned. Like a slow moving bull, it eventually travels a thousand leagues. If one trains diligently for one or two hours every day, then in three or four years one will see a change in physique. Those who train in this fashion will discover the deeper principles of karate.​

4. In karate, training of the hands and feet are important, so you should train thoroughly with a sheaf of straw (#). In order to do this, drop your shoulders, open your lungs, muster your strength, grip the floor with your feet, and concentrate your energy into your lower abdomen. Practice using each arm one to two hundred times each day.

​

5. When you practice the stances of karate, be sure to keep your back straight, lower your shoulders, put strength in your legs, stand firmly, and drop your energy into your lower abdomen.

​

6. Practice each of the techniques of karate repeatedly. Learn the explanations of every technique well, and decide when and in what manner to apply them when needed. Enter, counter, withdraw is the rule for torite.​

7. You must decide if karate is for your health or to aid your duty.​

8. When you train, do so as if on the battlefield. Your eyes should glare, shoulders drop, and body harden. You should always train with intensity and spirit as if actually facing the enemy, and in this way you will naturally be ready.

​

9. If you use up your strength to excess in karate training, this will cause you to lose the energy in your lower abdomen and will be harmful to your body. Your face and eyes will turn red. Be careful to control your training.​

10. In the past, many masters of karate have enjoyed long lives. Karate aids in developing the bones and muscles. It helps the digestion as well as the circulation. If karate should be introduced, beginning in the elementary schools, then we will produce many men each capable of defeating ten assailants.​

These sound like his karate is geared towards warfare or military uses, and not personal self defense. He sounds like his martial arts is comparable to samurai arts, thinking and philosophy.
​

 

[ralphmcpherson]

11 pages to discuss the meaning behind:

down block Punch
down block Punch
down block Punch
Inside middle block punch
inside middle block punch
down block Punch
high block front snap kick punch
high block front snap kick punch
down block
punch.

yup. hidden meaning there. or NOT.

Maybe its in the stances.

let see:

walking stance
walking stance

walking stance
walking stance


Forward stance

walking stance
walking stance

walking stance
walking stance

Forward stance

walking stance
walking stance

walking stance
walking stance

forward stance
forward stance

nope still nothing.

how about the turns?

lets see:

L
R
F
R
L
F
L
R
B
B


Hmmm, still dont see it.

maybe if i take the 3rd letter of each word, arrange them in a pattern, then pick out what I "think" it may be I can come up with... nope still nothing.


WHAT AM I MISSING???? besides the point?


(I used the ENGLISH terms for those who are not familiar with the Korean terminology.)

the only reason this thread has gone for eleven pages is because certain people continually drag it off topic. You have posted cartoon pictures, and yet cant see the irony in your post. If people just stuck to the topic the thread would have gone two pages.

 

[puunui]

The transition from Jhoon Rhee TKD to Goju wasn't hard to make, probably because I had paid very little attention to the small details up until that point. I don't want to bag on my first instructor, but the level of training I received was night and day different. I didn't just take class from my sensei - I received a martial education from him.

You need to find someone that can do the same for you in kukki taekwondo. Until then, it will be a constant struggle for you.

 

[puunui]

And you as well.

The difference is that I don't openly disrespect the founders of my chosen martial art the way that you do, by calling them inexperienced and lacking in knowledge that you claim to have.

 

[d1jinx]

You have posted cartoon pictures, and yet cant see the irony in your post. If people just stuck to the topic the thread would have gone two pages.

Actually every picture I posted said exactly what I thought even the cartoon.

My above post is sarcasm mate.

Perhaps it is others who can not see the irony that the kukki taekwondo practicioners are the ones who feel this is rediculous yet the non/anti kukki basher decides to discuss the first most basic form as if there was some real life application or better yet to point out his beliefs on how kukkitaekwondo is based off of nonexperienced low ranking karateca wannabees (paraphrased of course]

When every post / thread contains a poke at taekwondo pioneers why would any true kukki taekwondo-ist wants to support or educate them?

But on the other hand when we stop participating, the non-kukki person begins to speak about something they do not understand and portray a false sense of knowledge and those who do seek truth or help will believe the imposter.

Sure, its open discussion. All free to examine and critic or try to find an application for themselves. But you can't speak on how something is the way it is, bash any founders, and try to use it as another justification of your belief.

Why not discuss a black belt form? One that does have meaning and applications within. Say jitae or chonkwan? Or does that exceeed the YMCA's curriculum and have techniques above the skill level of most?

Just my opinion of course. And I'm free to not participate of course, which I choose not to do much of anymore.
But I am positive if I went to the gungfu section and analized their techniques and commented on how weak their kicks are due to lack of chamber I would hav my *** handed to me and be cast out.

With so many variations of korean martial arts, studying 1 does not make you all knowing of each style. Yet people think because they studied their version of taekwondo, they are an expert of all taekwondo.

Well, I can tell you from experience they are not all the same. And have taken different paths only keeping the name.


So, feel free t continue discusions about it. But when the true practitioners of that style who have dedicated their lives to their version of the art speak, it shouldn't be so easily disguarded just because so and so said so in a book he wrote because he heard from so and so about so and so who knew so and so.


If you want to know the truth about kukki taekwondo poomse buy the books and dvds from kukkiwon and learn it there. Don't. Rely on some form of suggestion from someones idea or interpretations.

Sent from my epic 4g

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Disregard

 

[puunui]

Perhaps not, but I certainly haven't said that a majority of the people in the Ryukyu Islands practiced Te. I'm sure it was an activity sought after by a small segment of the population...Unless you have different information?

We hear about how karate was accepted into the Okinawan school system back at the turn of the last century. I wonder if that is how it is today. I sense not, that judo and kendo are more popular. Perhaps you can ask on your trip next year. I don't know how open your teacher and seniors are to these types of inquiries. There are Book Off stores here (Japanese used bookstore) that I frequent. I went last week and met a clerk there who was born and raised in Okinawa but is here for college. Perhaps I will go back and ask him about how popular karate is there or if it is a specialized activity. He said there were many bookoffs in Okinawa, large ones, and it made me want to go check out the martial arts books there. I went to the huge one in Manhattan last year and walked out with an armload of martial arts books. Two bags.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Actually every picture I posted said exactly what I thought even the cartoon.

My above post is sarcasm mate.

Perhaps it is others who can not see the irony that the kukki taekwondo practicioners are the ones who feel this is rediculous yet the non/anti kukki basher decides to discuss the first most basic form as if there was some real life application or better yet to point out his beliefs on how kukkitaekwondo is based off of nonexperienced low ranking karateca wannabees (paraphrased of course]

iWhen every post / thread contains a poke at taekwondo pioneers why would any true kukki taekwondo-ist wants to support or educate them?

But on the other hand when we stop participating, the non-kukki person begins to speak about something they do not understand and portray a false sense of knowledge and those who do seek truth or help will believe the imposter.

Sure, its open discussion. All free to examine and critic or try to find an application for themselves. But you can't speak on how something is the way it is, bash any founders, and try to use it as another justification of your belief.

Why not discuss a black belt form? One that does have meaning and applications within. Say jitae or chonkwan? Or does that exceeed the YMCA's curriculum and have techniques above the skill level of most?

Just my opinion of course. And I'm free to not participate of course, which I choose not to do much of anymore.
But I am positive if I went to the gungfu section and analized their techniques and commented on how weak their kicks are due to lack of chamber I would hav my *** handed to me and be cast out.

With so many variations of korean martial arts, studying 1 does not make you all knowing of each style. Yet people think because they studied their version of taekwondo, they are an expert of all taekwondo.

Well, I can tell you from experience they are not all the same. And have taken different paths only keeping the name.


So, feel free t continue discusions about it. But when the true practitioners of that style who have dedicated their lives to their version of the art speak, it shouldn't be so easily disguarded just because so and so said so in a book he wrote because he heard from so and so about so and so who knew so and so.


If you want to know the truth about kukki taekwondo poomse buy the books and dvds from kukkiwon and learn it there. Don't. Rely on some form of suggestion from someones idea or interpretations.

Sent from my epic 4g

this is the paranoia i spoke of in a previous post. I. Certainly dont see any kkw bashing going on. I have a few close friends who train kkw tkd and they are very good martial artists. I certainly dont bash kkw tkd, it has its faults as as all martial arts do, but to say people are kkw bashing is just straight out paranoia.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

this is the paranoia i spoke of in a previous post. I. Certainly dont see any kkw bashing going on. I have a few close friends who train kkw tkd and they are very good martial artists. I certainly dont bash kkw tkd, it has its faults as as all martial arts do, but to say people are kkw bashing is just straight out paranoia.

No, there is not KKW-bashing taking place. Just some hurt feelings persisting on the parts of some.

 

[miguksaram]

You need to find someone that can do the same for you in kukki taekwondo. Until then, it will be a constant struggle for you.

What I did to help me in this manner is to go step by step from Taeguk Il-jang up to my highest form and watch my stances. If they were too wide, or shall we say, too karate, I would shorten them and then start over until I made it feel right for taekwondo. The mistake I made at the Hanmadang was not practicing my traditional form like I should have. One big help I did receive, afterwards, was talking with the Task Force Committee members who do this on a daily basis under their instructors such as GM Mayes or GM Ahn and have them correct me where I was off in the form.

 

[miguksaram]

I do have an actual poomsae question for puunni or any other person who is in the "know" about the change in Taeguk forms. If you look at the videos on Pg 1 of this thread there is the old version and the new version of Il-jang. When they tansition from the foward stance reverse punch to the walking stance middle block, they changed the way they transition the arms. In the older video both arms go back and then block. In the newer video the person extends one arm forward while the other arm goes back and then blocks. Do you know why the change? Thank you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I do have an actual poomsae question for puunni or any other person who is in the "know" about the change in Taeguk forms. If you look at the videos on Pg 1 of this thread there is the old version and the new version of Il-jang. When they tansition from the foward stance reverse punch to the walking stance middle block, they changed the way they transition the arms. In the older video both arms go back and then block. In the newer video the person extends one arm forward while the other arm goes back and then blocks. Do you know why the change? Thank you.

Good question. I'd be interested in the answer as well.

 

[andyjeffries]

I do have an actual poomsae question for puunni or any other person who is in the "know" about the change in Taeguk forms. If you look at the videos on Pg 1 of this thread there is the old version and the new version of Il-jang. When they tansition from the foward stance reverse punch to the walking stance middle block, they changed the way they transition the arms. In the older video both arms go back and then block. In the newer video the person extends one arm forward while the other arm goes back and then blocks. Do you know why the change? Thank you.

I don't know why it changed but it at least seems consistent (both sides the middle block is done with the non-blocking arm in front of the chest rather than extended out). We've always done our inward blocks in this "new" style (so that's at least since 1986) so we haven't had to change this. There are other movements that we have had to change (lots of them) but fortunately this isn't one of them.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Originally Posted by d1jinx
Actually every picture I posted said exactly what I thought even the cartoon.

My above post is sarcasm mate.

Perhaps it is others who can not see the irony that the kukki taekwondo practicioners are the ones who feel this is rediculous yet the non/anti kukki basher decides to discuss the first most basic form as if there was some real life application or better yet to point out his beliefs on how kukkitaekwondo is based off of nonexperienced low ranking karateca wannabees (paraphrased of course]

iWhen every post / thread contains a poke at taekwondo pioneers why would any true kukki taekwondo-ist wants to support or educate them?

But on the other hand when we stop participating, the non-kukki person begins to speak about something they do not understand and portray a false sense of knowledge and those who do seek truth or help will believe the imposter.

Sure, its open discussion. All free to examine and critic or try to find an application for themselves. But you can't speak on how something is the way it is, bash any founders, and try to use it as another justification of your belief.

Why not discuss a black belt form? One that does have meaning and applications within. Say jitae or chonkwan? Or does that exceeed the YMCA's curriculum and have techniques above the skill level of most?

Just my opinion of course. And I'm free to not participate of course, which I choose not to do much of anymore.
But I am positive if I went to the gungfu section and analized their techniques and commented on how weak their kicks are due to lack of chamber I would hav my *** handed to me and be cast out.

With so many variations of korean martial arts, studying 1 does not make you all knowing of each style. Yet people think because they studied their version of taekwondo, they are an expert of all taekwondo.

Well, I can tell you from experience they are not all the same. And have taken different paths only keeping the name.


So, feel free t continue discusions about it. But when the true practitioners of that style who have dedicated their lives to their version of the art speak, it shouldn't be so easily disguarded just because so and so said so in a book he wrote because he heard from so and so about so and so who knew so and so.


If you want to know the truth about kukki taekwondo poomse buy the books and dvds from kukkiwon and learn it there. Don't. Rely on some form of suggestion from someones idea or interpretations.

Sent from my epic 4g

this is the paranoia i spoke of in a previous post. I. Certainly dont see any kkw bashing going on. I have a few close friends who train kkw tkd and they are very good martial artists. I certainly dont bash kkw tkd, it has its faults as as all martial arts do, but to say people are kkw bashing is just straight out paranoia.

I've seen some paranoia in this thread, but I don't think this is an example of it. The original post did seem to take a dig at the Kukkiwon pioneers (intentional or not). Maybe "bashing" is too strong a word, but I've noticed that people who are "bashing" the Kukkiwon never see any Kukkiwon bashing going on. I'm not accusing you of anything, just saying that the people who engage in "bashing" never seem to either realize or admit that they are/were bashing.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

this is the paranoia i spoke of in a previous post. I. Certainly dont see any kkw bashing going on.

The bashing in this thread has been primarily limited to one post, which was quoted and pointed out.

The issues with picking apart iljang for hidden or expanded applications have been addressed separately.

I have a few close friends who train kkw tkd and they are very good martial artists. I certainly dont bash kkw tkd,

No, you don't, in my opinion at least.

it has its faults as as all martial arts do, but to say people are kkw bashing is just straight out paranoia.

Calling it paranoia is going too far. There certainly is a tension that is perpetuated by a number of factors, likely on both sides of the aisle.

As for faults, I think that it is less an issue of faults than that each martial art has its peculiarities and its specialties. The key is to appreciate each art for what it is and to not go telling practitioners of those arts what there arts are and are not.

But I am positive if I went to the gungfu section and analized their techniques and commented on how weak their kicks are due to lack of chamber I would hav my *** handed to me and be cast out.

This is the sort of thing that goes on here frequently. It is not paranoia. It is there in black and white, and the posts in question are always quoted when they are made. And Djinx is correct; it would not be and is not tolerated in other sections of MT, but it is seemingly approved of, or at least overlooked, by the powers that be for this section.

 

[dancingalone]

These sound like his karate is geared towards warfare or military uses, and not personal self defense. He sounds like his martial arts is comparable to samurai arts, thinking and philosophy.
[/INDENT]

Itosu might have had some household/courtly security role for the Ryukyu king, so that observation could be very accurate.

 

[seasoned]

Guy's, between everyone here, we have to bring this whole thread back into some assemblance of order. The fact it has gone so long, (198) posts, just means there is a lot to read and go through. We can't base any action taken on the part of the MT staff, relevant to just a few posts. It has to be the big picture.
As a mentor, I can only suggest appropriate avenues to consider, and hope we are all big enough martial artists to do the right thing. This post is directed toward, not all, but a few that are fanning the flames, and not dropping issues of understandings, that could pertain, to just a particular art.
I have learned a lot myself while posting briefly, and that is, that all arts don't look at things the same way. What may seem logical to one system, may not fit into someone else's understanding of fact within their art.
So, for the sake of all involved, lurking or other wise, please stop the digs and sniping toward each other.
Martial arts is much bigger then this, with life lessons to learn. What are we teaching to the casual reader of our interaction here at MT.

I will leave it with a PLEASE and THANK YOU.................

 

[miguksaram]

Seasoned,

Just noticed your Marcinko quote. Very nice. I have enjoyed his books and highly recommend them for those wishing to learn more leadership skills.