Taegue Il Jang application

[andyjeffries]

Personally, I like the Chang Hon tul that I have seen. Not overly familiar with them, but whenever you or another ITF-er posts video of them, I like what I see.

The funny thing is I don't like them. That may be because to me ITF Taekwon-do looks like Karate to my eyes.

What I would like to see is a decent Kukki-Taekwondoin poomsae practitioner perform the Chang Hon tul in a Kukkiwon style. I'm not worried about whether the stance changes make them finish on the same spot or not, but seeing the movements done in Kukkiwon or WTF-style.

 

[dancingalone]

What I would like to see is a decent Kukki-Taekwondoin poomsae practitioner perform the Chang Hon tul in a Kukkiwon style. I'm not worried about whether the stance changes make them finish on the same spot or not, but seeing the movements done in Kukkiwon or WTF-style.

What would that accomplish though? Just an aesthetics deal?

 

[andyjeffries]

What would that accomplish though? Just an aesthetics deal?

Exactly that. As a Kukki-Taekwondoin, I would like to see the movements with the same name performed in the Kukkiwon or WTF style and the stances/stepping done likewise. Then I can consider what I think of the pattern without having thoughts like "OMG, why are you bouncing up and down" and "What on earth are your feet doing zig-zagging in and out" (and many others) screaming at the forefront of my mind.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The funny thing is I don't like them. That may be because to me ITF Taekwon-do looks like Karate to my eyes.

I don't really think about it that way. I try to just look at them as Chang Hon tul.

What I would like to see is a decent Kukki-Taekwondoin poomsae practitioner perform the Chang Hon tul in a Kukkiwon style. I'm not worried about whether the stance changes make them finish on the same spot or not, but seeing the movements done in Kukkiwon or WTF-style.

It would be interesting. Not sure what it would accomplish, but it would be interesting.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Chris, have you ever heard of the Unified TKD group? Some years ago I made the acquaintance of a guy that belongs to the organization. Apparently they created some forms using stylistic choices from BOTH the KKW and ITF forms, supposedly as a bridge for the two groups to work together and perhaps eventually unify.

If you are referring to the group that is based out of Canada (UTI, Unified Tae Kwon Do International) then I have heard of them. I wouldn't say I'm familiar with them as I've only seen a bit of their stuff, but I know who they are. The notion that they were going to serve as a bridge for the ITF and WTF/KKW, which I have heard before, is ... intersting, to say the least.

I thought the forms were meh, but the idea was interesting.

I've only seen a couple of their forms but I agree with your assessment. They are performed akin to an older ITF style, as opposed to anything from even perhaps the 1980's, and I wouldn't say they were very close to KKW guidelines either. YMMV if you've seen more than a few demonstrations of them.

I have seen very few people actually perform both ITF and KKW Taekwon-Do in any meaningful way when they say they do both styles. Usually they do both pattern sets but in an identical way or end up bring a mish-mash of both styles. This is problematic in the sense that each has a different manner of generating power, moving the body, chambering for techniques, executing kicks, etc. It's not problematic in that people aren't free to do it, it's problematic for me in that I don't know what they're trying to accomplish or, rather, I don't know if it's possible to any great extent. I tend to think of Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo as two different martial arts, though I know that's not necessarily popular to do these days. At the very least they are different styles of a common system. How does one perform sine wave while moving in KKW stances? Which chambers should you perform when executing blocks, especially knife-hand guarding blocks? What happens to the twist in a yop cha girigi when KKW folks do "side kicks"? Andy says he views ITF Taekwon-Do as being more karate like when he sees its patterns but to me KKW TKD forms appear more karate-ish in how they are performed. (Maybe we're both right in some sense?)

I suppose the UTI's idea of taking elements from both would be like a karate group deciding it's going to combine elements of disparate systems. Mabuni pulled it off in Shito Ryu. But I don't know how successful the UTI has been, speaking as an outsider. I know I couldn't make any sort of meaningful rapproachment between the two styles. To do so would, I think, would require years of study and a very high level of proficiency in each.

Pax,

Chris

 

[miguksaram]

His affiliation with the KKW (and, at the time, USTU) didn't enter in to him teaching additional patterns.

Exactly. It has been said before that KKW does not dictate what you can and cannot teach, it only dictates what is required from you to recevie their certification. It is cool to know that your former instructor was able to instruct in KKW and ITF forms.

 

[dancingalone]

I've only seen a couple of their forms but I agree with your assessment. They are performed akin to an older ITF style, as opposed to anything from even perhaps the 1980's, and I wouldn't say they were very close to KKW guidelines either. YMMV if you've seen more than a few demonstrations of them.

What I noticed is that they do run their forms, not unlike how I learned the Chang Hon forms myself. But they had a more modern kicking method than I did with shorter chambers all around. I've only see the one gentleman and his students in person, so I don't know if my observation is accurate to the entire group.

I suppose the UTI's idea of taking elements from both would be like a karate group deciding it's going to combine elements of disparate systems. Mabuni pulled it off in Shito Ryu. But I don't know how successful the UTI has been, speaking as an outsider. I know I couldn't make any sort of meaningful rapproachment between the two styles. To do so would, I think, would require years of study and a very high level of proficiency in each.

The funny thing about that is as a Goju-ryu guy I'd say Shito-ryu strays closer to Itosu karate than to Higashionna karate. Makes sense. They usually learn the Pinan series earlier on and no doubt that influences everything else.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Gnarlie posted this video along with several others on the forms application thread. Thank you Gnarlie for all the videos! As I was looking at them, this video caught my attention for its application for Il Jang. Starting at the :29 second mark and on, you'll recognize the movement sequence discussed in this thread. He adds in a second punch with the left blocking arm that isn't in Il Jang but it doesn't have to be added if going strictly by the forms movements. The movement after the punch is the continuation into the next sequence i.e. the 180 degree turn + down block.

 

[dancingalone]

Starting at the :29 second mark and on, you'll recognize the movement sequence discussed in this thread.

I have seen the down block used as a release vs. a wrist/lapel/arm/shoulder grab many times in TKD/TSD hosinsul. Then it's immediately followed up with a strike or series of strikes before running away. This could be interpreted as a form application as the gentleman in the video displays. Or not.

In any case with or without bunkai, practicing the form teaches the student how to use waist and shoulder turns to make his downward smash effective.

 

[Gnarlie]

I have seen the down block used as a release vs. a wrist/lapel/arm/shoulder grab many times in TKD/TSD hosinsul. Then it's immediately followed up with a strike or series of strikes before running away. This could be interpreted as a form application as the gentleman in the video displays. Or not.

In any case with or without bunkai, practicing the form teaches the student how to use waist and shoulder turns to make his downward smash effective.

True true true. For some people, the relationship between poomsae movements and hosinsul is implicit. Searching for and suggesting applications merely makes the link explicit. Some people need this, as they are unable to make the link for themselves.

There have been a number of occasions where students have been drilling hosinsul and I've said something like, "you know, just like that forearm block from Yuk Jang!", and suddenly a little light goes on, as they discover for themselves that poomsae has taught them something practical as well as philosophical.

Gnarlie