Taegue Il Jang application

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Kong Soo Do, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Here is a good example of what I'm talking about. Though I'm not KKW Daniel, I do have rank in TKD, so your characteriziation is innacurate. Is it deliberate or ignorance? Same thing for your comment on me spending the bulk of my time 'putting down' the KKW, it is innacurate. Most of my time has been spent discussing various aspects of SD. So unless you have a break down of the number of posts I've made in relation to the number of times I've discussed the KKW, it is either ignorance or a deliberate attempt to make an inaccurate statement. And in regards to 'putting it down', the truth is often painful to those that wish to ignore it. But everything you've claimed above is bunk with the exception of my being non-KKW. So back up your statements or stop whinning the same nonsense.
     
  2. d1jinx

    d1jinx Master Black Belt

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  3. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    It was meant as a joke to make light of the discussion.

    Now go relax or I will send a Taeguk I-jang ahp-chagi death touch of this internet through the forum and give you spider veins in your ankle.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  4. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Only if you spell 'color' the correct way and drop that annoying 'u' in it. :D
     
  5. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Love to hear if she comes up with anything. My understanding is that crime stats simply weren't kept for that era, circa 1850 - 1910 when when first Matsumura and then Higashionna were in their prime, matured, and took disciples.

    It's not like they had TV to watch. :) My thought is that the older karate masters trained hard primarily because of their work ethic and overriding interest in karate, but also because frankly they didn't have the same distractions we have today: tv, travel, whatever.

    I'm also only guessing, but picture yourself as someone a century or more ago, living on a few small islands that have been invaded over and over again over the centuries. Why wouldn't there be more of a warrior ethos present where it was thought important to be capable of defending yourself? You're from the islands... What about all these tough Polynesian guys we hear about?

    I also think the art itself played a role. I think the training was serious back then. You weren't likely to get into karate as a 2 hour a week hobby like it is frequently the case now. Men like Matsumura and his student Itosu finely honed their fighting skills since they were court officials. Matsumura in particular was the Ryukyu king's chief bodyguard. Arguably the bulk of the various karate ryu flow from them lineage-wise, and presumably any particular attention to intent and effectiveness of the art would likewise have passed down. I think the same argument could be applied to the later Naha style which descended from Fukien Crane, and there's no indication that Crane was trained casually as a matter of course back then either. It was supposed to be serious stuff.

    Oh, I think it depends on the situation and the person if we're talking about how easy it is to defend ourselves. One of the students I was thinking about is into law enforcement and he gets to use what we study in class at least once or twice a week (yeah, we're a major crime area, LOL).

    I would agree that SD is probably not the primary reason people sign up for karate/TKD classes now these days. Certainly not at my schools. On my survey form, most check off exercise, SD, & fun activity in some combination though. I should probably reword the survey if I really wanted a real answer on why they join, but I suspect exercise is probably the top real reason for adults, and fun (or get the kids out of my hair for an hour) is the real answer for the children.

    But when I ran my hardcore Goju class out of my home, I can say a much greater percentage of people were there because they wanted to learn fighting skills. And I in fact started MA as a kid because I got into some scraps and I wanted (or Dad wanted) for me to get an edge. I still get a good share of kids in who are bullied at school. In the past we used to teach them how to punch the bully in the nose - now we focus on conflict management and getting to a safe place.

    It's not so unlikely if one is a trained martial artist already. If someone showed me a good application from a totally foreign style to me, I could probably find a way to internalize it within the framework I understand already, given sufficient time. It wouldn't be the original rendition likely, but that wouldn't be my overriding concern.
     
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  6. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I had a bit of a problem with this at the Hanmadang. When I performed Taebaek, I ended up with a silver medal. When I stepped off one of my friends, said that I executed a beautiful karate version of Taebaek with my stances. I find the hardest thing for me from time to time is to remember the proper level of my stances.
     
  7. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Where was this, in Korea? Sparring in that way would be silly unless it was done at half-speed with an intent to study classical form (not necessarily a bad thing). The moment one participant breaks the compact and shortens his motions, he would gain an immediate advantage.
     
  8. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    It's all in how it is presented. Saying, 'Taegeuk Iljang opens with a turn left, a down block, and a revere punch. What sort of applications do taekwondoists find can be drawn from this' and leaving out follow up posts that critique the experience of the art's founders would be fine; it isolates the techniques in question and sets up a more universal discussion rather than inferring knowledge about forms and an art one doesn't practice.
     
  9. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Absolutely. I spent almost a year trying to purge Goju traits when I ran the Chang Hon forms. I was nowhere near total success despite trying very, very hard to do so. That's why I've always been puzzled when people say they practice multiple sets of TKD forms but perform them according to each individual standard.

    I guess it could be done if one has a lot of time and is really, really talented.
     
  10. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I offered a couple of insights, first the different versions of what you will find when bringing up this type of topic. Secondly I showed you that you are using the wrong version of Taeguk Il-jang to even start this conversation of with in the first place. Yet you still insist on referring to the original video that you posted which is outdated. If you are going to exam a poomsae, then at least exam the most recent version. It's like trying to do an analysis of a Windows OS by taking a look at Win95 version.

    I believe it was you who decided to put in your own $.02 worth on what you felt the pioneers know or don't know about poomsae. This had no relevance to the original topic. So in actuallity you started this derailing process. Then when called on that, you start saying we are trying to derail, when in fact you opened the worms in the first place. Once again you throw yourself up as a victim in these discussions.

    No what has been said in this discussion if you don't know the full mechanics of this poomsae then perhaps trying to put together any type of boonsae is not the best idea. Especially if you are going to do the far fetched type boonsae such as saying a low block is actually a hammer fist strike.

    I believe that the person who is correcting the spelling was correcting someone else who was posting not you. You keep throwing up that victim card, which can also be seen in a number of threads.

    I believe you said yourself that you were not the best resources on knowledge of the Taeguk forms. When was the last time you practiced the most recent versions of these forms, or when was the last time you practiced these forms at all? What truthfulness are you referring to? You understanding of what the pioneers knew when they trained? If it is true, then please site your references to such truths. Is it through your own experience with them? Is it through your own experience working with one of their direct students? Is it something you read? Is it something you heard from a student? Or is it something you are throwing out there because there is no evidence to contrary? I'm curious as to where you are basing your truths from.


    I am not sure what the other members goals are, but I can tell you that I am not shooting to get this closed down. I am shooting for actual information based on facts not opinions to come out. I am looking for intellegent conversation based on ones experience on the topic. Not a guesstimate based on watching a video (did I mention that the video was outdated?).

    I doubt Seasoned is going to let anyone chase him out, nor is anyone looking to chase him out.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2012
  11. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Double post
     
  12. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Nobody is looking to chase anyone out. Not even Kong Soo Do.
     
  13. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    qft!
     
  14. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    It is a matter of setting your mind to do it correctly, without falling back on your instincts. I really wasn't planning on competing in traditional forms, and it was a last minute decision. In hind-sight when I was practicing I should have paid more attention to my stances. Though they 'felt' right, I should have picked up that they felt right because I was doing it "karate" style. :) Oh well...back to the topic.
     
  15. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 3rd Black Belt

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    No, this was at a YMCA club in the US, and they were going as full speed as you can go (though not full contact) performing the techniques that way. To be fair, I only saw one class, so I don't know if they did it that way all the time.
     
  16. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    I've 'insisted' on using the video? Where did I insist on it? It is just a sample video off youtube to use as an example for the movement sequences. Current or outdated is not the point, the discussion is on movement sequences.

    I stated that, which exceptons, they were low or no rank karateka. Is this an error? I also stated that an instructor, any instructor cannot teach what they themselves do not know? Is this in error? Do you teach things you don't know Jeremy? I also stated that I don't believe that, in general, they had the experience to know any/most/all of the nuances contained in kata which was then reflected in their interpretations of the forms they created (certainly not to the extend of their karate seniors). Is this in error? This isn't 'putting them down'. This is simply stating fact(s). And as mentioned previously, I've stated quite clearly that no 'put down' was intended. And since I'm the one stating that, to take it any other way is solely the responsibility of the reciever.

    Are you looking for intelligent conversation based on ones experience on the topic? Others have commented on this movement being an effective hammer fist based upon their experience. I have as well. Why then would you then disrespect their experience simply because it isn't your own? Respectfully put, why not have simply chosen to discuss the merits of the application in question and seek further input from the experience of others? That would have produced more intelligent conversation than the method of 'jokes and derogatory remarks' you've chosen.

    Your friend stated that I did not know a particular TKD form. He's never met me, he's never seen me train, he's never asked if I knew that particular form or not. What level of truthfulness would you consider his statement that I don't know the form? Some have 'suggested' that I and others shouldn't be posting here because we are non-TKD. But yet, I do have TKD rank and you yourself have talked with my TKD instructor in years past. What level of truthfulness would you consider statements to the contrary?

    I have plainly stated this from the beginning of the thread. Karate kata contain movement sequences that on the surface appear to be 'blocks' and other movements but also, or more appropriately are different applications. Since other applications exist in karate kata, the same movement sequences, if used in Korean forms, will have the same applications. Whether or not the form creator intended this or not, whether they knew this or not is moot. If a movement sequence in a kata means 'ABC' then that same movement sequence in a Korean form will also mean 'ABC' even if the creator says it means 'XYZ'. It can and is both simultaneously. One does not have to use one or either. Do you find this an unreasonable suggestion Jeremy?

    This is good to know and something we can agree on and work towards. I'd like to see it become more productive. I'd like to see discussion on the form, or any other form where a member says something like, "in X form I see the following application(s)" and then discussion can ensue on that interpretation. That way, perhaps things are put out there that increases another members knowledge base. To me, that is a lot more productive than much that has been offered to this point.

    Then if becomes a win-win thread.
     
  17. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 3rd Black Belt

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    With respect, have you ever met the Kukkiwon seniors, seen them train, or asked them about the nuances contained in kata? If you have, then I apologize, but it looks like you're doing exactly what you accuse other posters of doing...
     
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  18. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Yes sir, I have. On MW we had several members that were between fourth and seventh Dan that discussed this topic at length. These were people that had trained directly with different Korean GM's and had those discussions with them as well. And there were Masters from Tang Soo Do and Hapkido participating in that thread as well. In fact, it was one of the longest running threads ever on MW and led, in part, to much of the content of Mr. O'Neills book (you can see a list of many of the participants in the forward portion of the book. It's been several years, but I believe Jeremy was a part of that discussion. He can correct me if I'm wrong. I'd have to go back and look at the whole thing.
     
  19. d1jinx

    d1jinx Master Black Belt

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    11 pages to discuss the meaning behind:

    down block Punch
    down block Punch
    down block Punch
    Inside middle block punch
    inside middle block punch
    down block Punch
    high block front snap kick punch
    high block front snap kick punch
    down block
    punch.

    yup. hidden meaning there. or NOT.

    Maybe its in the stances.

    let see:

    walking stance
    walking stance

    walking stance
    walking stance


    Forward stance

    walking stance
    walking stance

    walking stance
    walking stance

    Forward stance

    walking stance
    walking stance

    walking stance
    walking stance

    forward stance
    forward stance

    nope still nothing.

    how about the turns?

    lets see:

    L
    R
    F
    R
    L
    F
    L
    R
    B
    B


    Hmmm, still dont see it.

    maybe if i take the 3rd letter of each word, arrange them in a pattern, then pick out what I "think" it may be I can come up with... nope still nothing.


    WHAT AM I MISSING???? besides the point?


    (I used the ENGLISH terms for those who are not familiar with the Korean terminology.)
     
  20. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I do owe you one appology, the second reference to the outdated video was not made by you, but someone quoting your original posting which showed the video. So for saying you are insisting on using an outdated video, I apologize.

    Now current or outdated is the point because you are making reference to a specific poomsae. One which has subtle move changes that could effect how one interprets the boonsae.

    Yes, by giving the image that because they held 1st through 3rd dans they were low rank. Back then the highest rank was 5th dan held by Funakoshi Sensei. So a first dan would not have been a low rank. You are viewing it through today's eyes where 1st dan, on the scale of 10 possible dans, would be a low rank.
    On its own, you are correct. However, you were were not making a general statement, but referring to the pioneers of TKD.
    It is an error, because you really do not know what they know. So you are guessing at best. You are basically doing to them what you are accusing others on this list of doing to you. Making non-informative statements of what someone does or does not know.

    Is it a put down? You tell me. How do you feel when people make this uninformative statements about your knowledge in the martial arts? Let's make it even more simple, how do you feel when someone makes at statement regarding your possible lack of knowledge on Taeguk Il-jang? You say fact, but fact based on what evidence?

    Nice try, but I have already submitted proof that I am open to interpretation of movements. Please refer to my thread about double knife hand executions. So it is not the topic of bunkai that I am questioning. I would like to discuss the main topic with people who have actually practiced the form in its entirety from someone who knows the purpose and mechanics, not from watching a video of the form. Hell I understand bunkai/boonsae. I can even make a bunkai out of picking my nose. At least my jokes stayed on topic of application of the form based on the mechanics of what the technique was meant to do and not some guess because of what it looked like on a video. Can you point out where I was derogatory and to who?

    How is this different from you bringing into question what the pioneers knew? I guess this answers my questions about how you feel about people making uninformative remarks about your training and knowledge.

    No but only if you know the form correctly. You have to take in consideration transitioning from one move to the next and not just the end move. Bunkai/Boonsae is more than just the end move and its intention. To understand the full picture you need to be sure to include all the pieces of the puzzle not just the corner pieces because they fit together the easiest.

    I have no problem discussing this type of topic. If you truely want to help increase knowledge base then those discussing it should understand the subject to its full potential and not just a quick snapshot. Case in point is my thread about the Koryo dynasty. It debunks the snapshot that the Silla dynasty, which many TKD practitioners are lead to believe, was such a great time in Korean history. Why? Because we only got a snap shot of the surface. Upon reading you find out that the Silla dynasty was pretty much full of corruption and internal strife and a lot of opporession of the poor. Not quite the romantic era that many of us are taught through our TKD studies.123
     

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