Taegue Il Jang application

[Kong Soo Do]

Guy's, between everyone here, we have to bring this whole thread back into some assemblance of order. The fact it has gone so long, (198) posts, just means there is a lot to read and go through. We can't base any action taken on the part of the MT staff, relevant to just a few posts. It has to be the big picture.
As a mentor, I can only suggest appropriate avenues to consider, and hope we are all big enough martial artists to do the right thing. This post is directed toward, not all, but a few that are fanning the flames, and not dropping issues of understandings, that could pertain, to just a particular art.
I have learned a lot myself while posting briefly, and that is, that all arts don't look at things the same way. What may seem logical to one system, may not fit into someone else's understanding of fact within their art.
So, for the sake of all involved, lurking or other wise, please stop the digs and sniping toward each other.
Martial arts is much bigger then this, with life lessons to learn. What are we teaching to the casual reader of our interaction here at MT.

I will leave it with a PLEASE and THANK YOU.................

Excellent observations and suggestions. Here is what I'm going to do, I will start a new thread dedicated simply to the applications of any and all Korean forms. My suggestion is the if ANYONE has a beef with anything stemming from this thread, or any other thread to take it to email or PM and leave that thread EXCLUSIVELY for the discussion of the topic. No snide remarks, no sarcasm, no stupid off-topic pictures just discussion of forms applications ONLY. Again, if anyone has a heartache with anyone else, take it to email or PM. You shouldn't need an audience and the thread should remain free of drama. I'll add one thing, if anyone does carry over grief then it means they need an audience and have an agenda.

I'll echo the please and thank you

 

[Archtkd]

Excellent observations and suggestions. Here is what I'm going to do, I will start a new thread dedicated simply to the applications of any and all Korean forms. My suggestion is the if ANYONE has a beef with anything stemming from this thread, or any other thread to take it to email or PM and leave that thread EXCLUSIVELY for the discussion of the topic. No snide remarks, no sarcasm, no stupid off-topic pictures just discussion of forms applications ONLY. Again, if anyone has a heartache with anyone else, take it to email or PM. You shouldn't need an audience and the thread should remain free of drama. I'll add one thing, if anyone does carry over grief then it means they need an audience and have an agenda.

I'll echo the please and thank you

I don't think there's need for PMS or e-mails to discuss MT topics if they are posted in the right forums. Your new thread ought to be in the General Korean martial arts section. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/52-Korean-Martial-Arts-General

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't think there's need for PMS or e-mails to discuss MT topics if they are posted in the right forums. Your new thread ought to be in the General Korean martial arts section. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/52-Korean-Martial-Arts-General

Whinning, bitching, complaining, sniping, sarcastic remarks, stupid little pictures and hurt feelings aren't MT topics. Someone having a beef with someone else isn't a MT topic. Inserting them into a thread over and over is a juvenille need for attention and an audience. So yes, if someone doesn't like someone else, take it to email or PM and hash it out off-board. That way the topic stays clutter-free. I can't imagine ANYONE feeling otherwise.

And if a mod thinks the General KMA section is a more appropriate place then I encourage them to move it there. In fact, that is a good idea so other arts can join in as well. Thank you for the suggestion.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

And if a mod thinks the General KMA section is a more appropriate place then I encourage them to move it there. In fact, that is a good idea so other arts can join in as well. Thank you for the suggestion.

Normally, I might say that that general kma is more appropriate, and from a technical standpoint it is. But you'll probably get more participation if it is posted in the TKD section.

 

[puunui]

Don't both of these constitute whining, bitching, complaining and sniping?

Whinning, bitching, complaining, sniping, sarcastic remarks, stupid little pictures and hurt feelings aren't MT topics. Someone having a beef with someone else isn't a MT topic. Inserting them into a thread over and over is a juvenille need for attention and an audience. So yes, if someone doesn't like someone else, take it to email or PM and hash it out off-board. That way the topic stays clutter-free. I can't imagine ANYONE feeling otherwise.

And if a mod thinks the General KMA section is a more appropriate place then I encourage them to move it there. In fact, that is a good idea so other arts can join in as well. Thank you for the suggestion.

Excellent observations and suggestions. Here is what I'm going to do, I will start a new thread dedicated simply to the applications of any and all Korean forms. My suggestion is the if ANYONE has a beef with anything stemming from this thread, or any other thread to take it to email or PM and leave that thread EXCLUSIVELY for the discussion of the topic. No snide remarks, no sarcasm, no stupid off-topic pictures just discussion of forms applications ONLY. Again, if anyone has a heartache with anyone else, take it to email or PM. You shouldn't need an audience and the thread should remain free of drama. I'll add one thing, if anyone does carry over grief then it means they need an audience and have an agenda.

I'll echo the please and thank you

I disagree with your assessment and feel that this topic has been very informative.

 

[puunui]

Chojun Miyagi Sensei was also part of the evolution to "Do". He participated in creating a few kata along with Shosin Nagamine Sensei that were meant to be universal kata unifying the Shorin & Shorei branches of karate as a bridging pathway to the other kata and I believe these hookiyu kata likewise were meant for usage in schools before the outbreak of war ended the project.

Miyagi wrote an essay that has been translated through the efforts of some Hawaiian historians (I believe puunui has said he knows them well). In it he makes some interesting remarks about this transition in karate. http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/outline.html

I wouldn't say that I know him "very well", but we know each other. How that came about was he had a copy of GM HWANG Kee's Tangsoodo Kyobon published in 1958. Dr. He Young Kimm was visiting during his 70th birthday celebration here with his family so I took him to see Goodin Sensei so we could look at the book. We examined it, Dr. Kimm made all kinds of comments explaining this and that, and so Goodin Sensei was kind enough to burn a copy of the book on a cd for us.

But I was looking at the translation, http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/outline.html and noticed at the very first line, it says:"What is karate? It is the art we exercise mind and body for health promotion in daily life, but in case of emergency it is the art of self-defence without any weapon."

So according to Miyagi Sensei, karate is "for health promotion in daily life" primarily, and only "in case of emergency it is the art of self-defence without any weapon."

This by the way, parallels GM LEE Won Kuk's philosophy, summed up in his famous calligraphy "Hwal In Taekwondo", which means Taekwondo is a vehicle of health and long life. So perhaps GM Lee is not as inexperienced as some would like us to believe, that the "applications" of taegeuk 1 jang and all poomsae in taekwondo are there to promote health and long life primarily, and not all these secret hidden reverse engineered applications which were never in there in the first place. Or at least that is what I believe would be GM Lee's response to this thread and the applications of taegeuk 1 jang, which again is in line with Miyagi Sensei's beliefs on the matter, Itosu Sensei's militaristic comments not withstanding.

 

[puunui]

I do have an actual poomsae question for puunni or any other person who is in the "know" about the change in Taeguk forms. If you look at the videos on Pg 1 of this thread there is the old version and the new version of Il-jang. When they tansition from the foward stance reverse punch to the walking stance middle block, they changed the way they transition the arms. In the older video both arms go back and then block. In the newer video the person extends one arm forward while the other arm goes back and then blocks. Do you know why the change? Thank you.

I don't know. Never really asked about it. If I had to guess, I would say they wanted to standardize the poomsae even more, because I know that stick the non blocking arm straight out thing is in other poomsae now as well. I prefer the old way, because it makes for a smoother transition in my opinion.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I don't know anything other than the broad details most know about already. Itosu Sensei already was heading in that direction some say with the introduction of his Pinan kata, these forms intended to be easier to learn for kids still in school (picture 9th grade on, not primary school). If you read his famous letter however, the one in which the 10 Precepts are written, it's apparent that karate was no mere exercise vehicle for him, though as he states it is an important benefit.

Itosu is an interesting figure, from the little I know of him. I believe he was something of an accomplisherd calligrapher and came from an educated background (having studied Chinese Neo-Confucianism). This is, substantially, the same type of education Gen. Choi received, before going to Japan. I wonder if it is coincidence that many of their ideas on martial arts training are similar or the result of their studies.

I have not read his Ten Precepts before. My thoughts, such as they are, interspersed below.

1. Karate is not merely practiced for your own benefit; it can be used to protect one's family or master. It is not intended to be used against a single assailant but instead as a way of avoiding injury by using the hands and feet should one by any chance be confronted by a villain or ruffian.​

Very interesting. While Gen. Choi mentions the health benefits of Taekwon-Do training he also talks about it being for self-defense, and even for protecting other people.

2. The purpose of karate is to make the muscles and bones hard as rock and to use the hands and legs as spears. If children were to begin training naturally in military prowess while in elementary school, then they would be well suited for military service. Remember the words attributed to the Duke of Wellington after he defeated Napoleon, “Today's battle was won on the playing fields of our schools”.

This reminds me a lot of Gen. Choi's emphasis on dallyon, the forging of attacking and blocking tools. I've had some pretty interesting lessons from my own instructor as well as some other Masters on this topic. Probably not as much as some karateka, but interesting, nonetheless. I do daily dallyon training, although not as much as, say, Morio Higaonna I did have an older Asian gentleman ask me "Do you practice Okinawan karate" not too long ago after he saw my hands. We had an interesting discussion. He had practiced Shito Ryu for a while and seemed surprised that Taekwon-Do encompassed some of the same supplementary training methods.

3. Karate cannot be quickly learned. Like a slow moving bull, it eventually travels a thousand leagues. If one trains diligently for one or two hours every day, then in three or four years one will see a change in physique. Those who train in this fashion will discover the deeper principles of karate.

Nothing really to add here but just to say, isn't that the truth? Consistent practice leads to all sorts of insights eventually.​

4. In karate, training of the hands and feet are important, so you should train thoroughly with a sheaf of straw (#). In order to do this, drop your shoulders, open your lungs, muster your strength, grip the floor with your feet, and concentrate your energy into your lower abdomen. Practice using each arm one to two hundred times each day.

I assume he is referring to the makiwara here when he says "sheaf of straw." It is interesting that, all things considered, he recommends a somewhat low amount of strikes. I have read accounts of early Shotokan/JKA training in Japan where guys would really go to town on the makiwara. I'd rather see the conditioning be built up over time to give the body time to adjust and not suffer serious injuries.

​

5. When you practice the stances of karate, be sure to keep your back straight, lower your shoulders, put strength in your legs, stand firmly, and drop your energy into your lower abdomen.

Similar to what Gen. Choi specifies for posture and some stances (especially sitting stance, IIRC).

​

6. Practice each of the techniques of karate repeatedly. Learn the explanations of every technique well, and decide when and in what manner to apply them when needed. Enter, counter, withdraw is the rule for torite.

This is very similar to one of Gen. Choi's Training Secrets. It is "To understand the purpose and method of each movement clearly." Another one states: "To choose the appropriate attacking tool for each vital spot," and another one says, "To become familiar with the correct angle and distance for attack and defense." Both Gen. Choi and Itosu seem much concerned with proper application.

7. You must decide if karate is for your health or to aid your duty.

Interesting. I think that, in light of #1 above there isn't necessarily a conflict between one's health and "aid to your duty." It seems, rather, a difference in emphasis. YMMV, of course. ​

8. When you train, do so as if on the battlefield. Your eyes should glare, shoulders drop, and body harden. You should always train with intensity and spirit as if actually facing the enemy, and in this way you will naturally be ready.

Yep. If karate was only for one's health I don't know that Itosu would suggest training "as if on the battlefield," especially mentioning that you should do so "as if actually facing the enemy," which results in you being "naturally ready" (to defend oneself).

​

9. If you use up your strength to excess in karate training, this will cause you to lose the energy in your lower abdomen and will be harmful to your body. Your face and eyes will turn red. Be careful to control your training.

How do you see this as squaring with the practice of Hojo Undo? Some of the exercises are specifically designed to enhance physical strength, not just the hardening of attacking and blocking tools. ​

10. In the past, many masters of karate have enjoyed long lives. Karate aids in developing the bones and muscles. It helps the digestion as well as the circulation. If karate should be introduced, beginning in the elementary schools, then we will produce many men each capable of defeating ten assailants.

You know, I just checked a version of this letter online that had Itosu saying such practice would greatly help not only the people engaging in the training be able to defeat ten men (!), but the military as well. The rather understandable desire to de-emphasize militarism post WW II in Japan aside, that is another similarity between Itosu and Gen. Choi. He was very interested in having Korean soldiers benefit from Taekwon-Do training.


​

Chojun Miyagi Sensei was also part of the evolution to "Do". He participated in creating a few kata along with Shosin Nagamine Sensei that were meant to be universal kata unifying the Shorin & Shorei branches of karate as a bridging pathway to the other kata and I believe these hookiyu kata likewise were meant for usage in schools before the outbreak of war ended the project.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware that he developed kata like this. Are these kata part of the Goju curriculum?

Miyagi wrote an essay that has been translated through the efforts of some Hawaiian historians (I believe puunui has said he knows them well). In it he makes some interesting remarks about this transition in karate. http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/outline.html

3. Karate circles in the past​

We also do not know origin of the name "karate", but it is true that the name "karate" was made recently. In the old days it was called "Te". At that time people used to practice karate secretly, and a masters taught a few advanced Kata out of all the Kata only to his best disciple. If he had no suitable disciple, he never taught them anyone, and eventually such Kata have completely died out. As a result, there are many Kata which were not handed down. In about middle of Meiji period (1868-1912), prominent karate masters abolished the old way of secrecy. Karate was opened to the public, so it was soon recognized by society. It was dawn in the development of karate. In accordance with the rapidly progressing culture, karate was also recognized as physical education, and it was adopted as one of the teaching subjects at school. Therefore, at last karate has won the social approval.​

It's interesting that Miyagi identifies the adoption of karate as a method of physical education as the time when it "won social approval." Before that, when it wasn't seen as such, not so much.
​

4. How we teach karate at present.

​

According to oral history, in the old days, the teaching policy of karate put emphasis on self-defence techniques. With just a motto of "no first attack in karate", teachers showed their students the moral aspects. However, I heard that in reality they tended to neglect such moral principles. So gradually the teaching policy was improved with the change of the times. Now we discontinued and abolished the wrong tradition of so-called "body first, and mind second", and we made our way toward Tao of fighting arts or the truth of karate. Eventually we have obtained the correct motto "mind first, and body second" which means karate and Zen are the same.​

The link between not only karate but martial arts in general and Zen is an interesting one. I suppose given the development of certain attitudes and abilities it's not necessarily a surprise. Gen. Choi makes the point, however, when he discusses meditation in Taekwon-Do that such meditation is decidely unlike Zen meditation. That being said, one of his calligraphies reads "Self-confidence through intuitive awareness," which is a state of mind at times associated with Zen.​

It's hard to say really without having trained in all of them under a senior native master. I'm sure you've noticed the karate brought back to the United States by westerners tends to be full of the personal development stuff. Whether that was emphasized by their Asian teachers or evolved over time in the US in response to business needs, I can't say with any surety. I do think some styles like Shotokan and Wado have been more influenced by Zen, notwithstanding the previous bit about Goju-ryu from Miyagi Sensei, and it's not uncommon to see teachers of these styles adopt and promulgate some aspects of Zen in their classes.

With Taekwon-Do the idea of self-development is emphasized to a certain degree simply because Gen. Choi included the Tenets in his books, as well as Moral Culture and the Student Oath. But I have experienced only a very few times when these things received explication as part of class. Recitation of the tenets and student oath, yes. Long lectures on them? No. GM Choi, Jung Hwa will occasionally give a brief talk on Taekwon-Do philosophy during his seminars, but that's something a bit different, IMNSHO (not the least difference being that GM Choi is actually something of as philosopher - pen and sword, who knew?). It's a large group of Taekwon-Doin coming together for a special training. It's not the same thing as a regular class. In the context of the relationship between student and teacher more is caught than taught. And that is maybe not such a bad thing. Seeing one's seniors and how they interact with others, including their instructors, can be quite enlightening if you take the time to watch and learn.

Personally, although we had a dojo kun in own line of Goju-ryu and we recited it before most classes, it really wasn't analysed in any great way. In fact, I can count on 1 hand the number of times my sensei said anything about the dojo kun at all.

This is very similar to my experience. I've had some pretty indepth discussions with people about Taekwon-Do philosophy and etiquette (and they were the kind of people who lived it 24/7) but that was all done outside of class.

I am planning a trip to Okinawa next year for a three week stay and I am setting up training opportunities judiciously with senior karate-ka. It will be interesting to see what they choose to show me. In my inquiries I'm asking for them to give me the regular training experiences someone on the islands would receive, rituals and all.

Very cool. Are you planning on just training with other Goju Ryu people, or folks from other styles, too?

Well, all I have is personal experience. My teacher did not accept new students casually. Only if he had room, only if he thought you would be diligent. In fact, he would turn away people I thought would have made great additions to our group based on their physical attributes and prior experience. I don't think he was looking for any moral qualities. With that said our training included nothing remotely like Zen Buddhism, nothing like seen in ATA TKD schools where students are encouraged to be positive, kind people.

As I said, Okinawan karate in the US is filled with this type of stuff. Is it purely a western construct, an American thing in reaction to our cultural needs to educate youth in civility and good character? I don't know. Anecdotally, I believe it is from what I have observed in my own training along with what I have seen in dojo run by people also with close ties to a living Okinawan. I hope to learn more about it when I travel next year.

My own instructors will let anyone sign up, but eventually the people who aren't into it just stop coming. Nothing is said overtly, really (or very rarely). But then again, neither is there an overt kind of rah-rah attitude when it comes to being "positive." I've seen a little of that at some schools (not ITF schools) and was always a bit put off by it. That could be because of my personality, my own experience in Taekwon-Do training, or whatever but it kind of struck me as not fake, but ... immature, maybe. I don't know. Hard to explain. Hmmm.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Jaeimseu]

8. When you train, do so as if on the battlefield. Your eyes should glare, shoulders drop, and body harden. You should always train with intensity and spirit as if actually facing the enemy, and in this way you will naturally be ready.

To me, this matches up very well with sports philosophy. It's very similar to the expression "practice like you play."
The battlefield comparison probably made more sense at that time, but I don't know how relevant the battlefield is today's students, the vast majority of which have never and will never set foot on a battlefield.

 

[dancingalone]

I enjoyed reading your comments about General Choi and Taekwon-Do.

How do you see this as squaring with the practice of Hojo Undo? Some of the exercises are specifically designed to enhance physical strength, not just the hardening of attacking and blocking tools.​

I don't necessarily think he was referring to hojo undo. I think he was referring more to esoteric stuff like iron shirt and some elements of qi training.

Very interesting. I wasn't aware that he developed kata like this. Are these kata part of the Goju curriculum?

Yes. During the development process, Nagamine Sensei designed Fukyugata Dai Ichi and Miyagi Sensei designed Fukyugata Dai Ni. Both forms are still used in their respective systems. Fukyugata Dai Ni by Miyagi is better known now in Goju-ryu as Gekisai Dai Ichi. He later added a Gekisai Dai Ni which is almost the same form but adds open handed techniques and a cat stance. Both Fukyugata forms are frequently used as the first kata in some Shorin-ryu lines, Matsubayashi-ryu obviously being one of them.

Very cool. Are you planning on just training with other Goju Ryu people, or folks from other styles, too?

I plan to see Taira Sensei from Goju-ryu for sure. I am close to him lineage-wise and he is an innovator, so I've got to see his stuff in person. Still making inquiries about other opportunities. I am not adverse to seeing other styles (Matsubayashi maybe which I also have a BB in), but I think I would get the most benefit obviously from seeing 1-3 super senior people in Goju and having multiple sessions with them. I've always wanted to learn the Yagi-line kata which are outside of my lineage. Maybe I can arrange to learn one during the trip.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I enjoyed reading your comments about General Choi and Taekwon-Do.

Thanks, I figured I'd try to actually relate what I asked about to Taekwon-Do Seriously, though, I was rather surprised about the similarities between Gen. Choi and Itosu, both in regards to their backgrounds and their attitudes towards training. I don't have the 1965 book with me right now since I'm not at home at the moment but there are some things in it whcih I'll be interested in checking when I get the chance.

I plan to see Taira Sensei from Goju-ryu for sure. I am close to him lineage-wise and he is an innovator, so I've got to see his stuff in person. Still making inquiries about other opportunities. I am not adverse to seeing other styles (Matsubayashi maybe which I also have a BB in), but I think I would get the most benefit obviously from seeing 1-3 super senior people in Goju and having multiple sessions with them. I've always wanted to learn the Yagi-line kata which are outside of my lineage. Maybe I can arrange to learn one during the trip.

When you mention the Yagi-line of Goju, I presume you mean the one going back via Yagu Meitatsu? I read an article or two on him many years ago. From an outsider's perspective Okinawan karate seems more akin to how CMA are. There's lots of styles and within them there are lots of lineages. In Praying Mantis, for example, a friend of mine and I were recently discussing a very big difference in how some pretty basic techniques were performed between the Wong Hun Fun line and the Chiu Chi Man line. Even in the ITF(s), which is very, very insistent on standardization you can see differences in the way certain things are performed. If you know where to look you can identify the IX dans people have spent a lot of time training under, too ) Not huge differences, but they're there if you know where to look.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

When you mention the Yagi-line of Goju, I presume you mean the one going back via Yagu Meitatsu? I read an article or two on him many years ago.

That's the one. There is an old Journal of Asian Martial Arts article about these kata. Someone who trains in Meibuken Goju-ryu from Australia has stated I was incorrect factually however when I paraphrased what I read from the Journal. The article says Yagi Sensei created the forms and apparently they are actually connected to older Chinese forms if this gentleman is right (I have no reason to assume he is not - he trains in the Meibuken organization).

From an outsider's perspective Okinawan karate seems more akin to how CMA are. There's lots of styles and within them there are lots of lineages. In Praying Mantis, for example, a friend of mine and I were recently discussing a very big difference in how some pretty basic techniques were performed between the Wong Hun Fun line and the Chiu Chi Man line.

Indeed. Goju at least retains a bunch of influences from gong fu, though naturally they have evolved and been corrupted simultaneously over the years. There is extensive use of a hook hand in one of the higher dan kata, though it looks nothing like mantis's (I wouldn't expect it to, since Goju owes its parentage to crane).

Even in the ITF(s), which is very, very insistent on standardization you can see differences in the way certain things are performed. If you know where to look you can identify the IX dans people have spent a lot of time training under, too ) Not huge differences, but they're there if you know where to look.

That doesn't surprise me despite your group's desire for standardization. In Goju-ryu, much the same happens. I can tell if someone has trained Jundokan, Meibuken, or Shoreikan. There are certain signatures developed in long-standing practitioners.

 

[miguksaram]

I don't know. Never really asked about it. If I had to guess, I would say they wanted to standardize the poomsae even more, because I know that stick the non blocking arm straight out thing is in other poomsae now as well. I prefer the old way, because it makes for a smoother transition in my opinion.

I would agree with that. I felt better touque and power as well. I can see a bit why they would have the arm out as well, if you look at the philosophy of push pull to equate proper power. You would be pulling back that extended arm into the chamber producing "equal" power in the block itself.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know. Never really asked about it. If I had to guess, I would say they wanted to standardize the poomsae even more, because I know that stick the non blocking arm straight out thing is in other poomsae now as well. I prefer the old way, because it makes for a smoother transition in my opinion.

I would agree with that. I felt better touque and power as well. I can see a bit why they would have the arm out as well, if you look at the philosophy of push pull to equate proper power. You would be pulling back that extended arm into the chamber producing "equal" power in the block itself.

I originally learned that form the old way, and while I found it more intuitive, I do practice it the current way.

The only practical reason that I can personally think of for it comes out of my kendo background, which is turning to a new direction and maintaining 'guard' by keeping the point up and directed at the opponent one is currently facing.

In the current practice of iljang, in that sequence, as you turn to face the new opponent, you extend the right arm in the direction of the attacker who's incoming punch you are about to block with your left hand. If there is a reason for this beyond aesthetics, however, I do not know.

 

[puunui]

I would agree with that. I felt better touque and power as well. I can see a bit why they would have the arm out as well, if you look at the philosophy of push pull to equate proper power. You would be pulling back that extended arm into the chamber producing "equal" power in the block itself.

The chamber with the bent arm is the same in my opinion from the straight arm, because the elbow of the pulling arm travels the same distance whether your arm is bent or straight.

 

[puunui]

This reminds me a lot of Gen. Choi's emphasis on dallyon, the forging of attacking and blocking tools.

General Choi did very little, if any, training on the makiwara. There are pictures of General Choi's featuring his hands on desks, but his knuckles were not developed with a makiwara. Instead what he used to do was put out cigarettes on his knuckles to give the appearance of having done makiwara work. That is just one example of the many things wrong with your comparison of General Choi to Itosu Sensei.

 

[shesulsa]

Since the OP wants to analyze application and has claimed Korean Hyung are simply Okinawan kata renamed ... perhaps it would be helpful if we can view a Korean hyung and it's alleged Japanese original version side-by-side, I'd like to respectfully ask Kong Soo Do to please post a video of two examples: One Korean Hyung and the Japanese cousin.

This would help folks like me whose heritage research is limited.

Thank you in advance!

 

[miguksaram]

Since the OP wants to analyze application and has claimed Korean Hyung are simply Okinawan kata renamed ... perhaps it would be helpful if we can view a Korean hyung and it's alleged Japanese original version side-by-side, I'd like to respectfully ask Kong Soo Do to please post a video of two examples: One Korean Hyung and the Japanese cousin.

This would help folks like me whose heritage research is limited.

Thank you in advance!

The Taeguks are not rehashed Okinawa forms. The Palgues would be better for that type of comparison or possibly the ITF tul.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since the OP wants to analyze application and has claimed Korean Hyung are simply Okinawan kata renamed ... perhaps it would be helpful if we can view a Korean hyung and it's alleged Japanese original version side-by-side, I'd like to respectfully ask Kong Soo Do to please post a video of two examples: One Korean Hyung and the Japanese cousin.

This would help folks like me whose heritage research is limited.

Thank you in advance!

That was addressed a few months ago when the OP made that claim before. I did post video. This has been addressed multiple times.

Also, Kukkiwon forms are pumsae, not hyeong/hyung. It may seem like quibbling to a non KKW practitioner, but there is a difference, however subtle. Hyeong 형 is the Korean rendering of the kanji: 形, which is pronounced 'kata' in Japanese, and means pattern, like the pattern a tailor would use to make a garment.

Pumsae (품새) has the following hanja: 品勢, and means "quality forms of strength." Pumsae does is not a Korean rendering of kata and is not a synonym for hyeong.

I don't know what hanja is used for 'Tul' so I have no comment on that.

 

[shesulsa]

So in KKW, are Hyung (as I understand what you said, *patterns*) shorter in length than Hyung (quality forms of strength)? And what is Tul?