Taegue Il Jang application

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Kong Soo Do, Aug 9, 2012.

  1. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Excellent observations and suggestions. Here is what I'm going to do, I will start a new thread dedicated simply to the applications of any and all Korean forms. My suggestion is the if ANYONE has a beef with anything stemming from this thread, or any other thread to take it to email or PM and leave that thread EXCLUSIVELY for the discussion of the topic. No snide remarks, no sarcasm, no stupid off-topic pictures just discussion of forms applications ONLY. Again, if anyone has a heartache with anyone else, take it to email or PM. You shouldn't need an audience and the thread should remain free of drama. I'll add one thing, if anyone does carry over grief then it means they need an audience and have an agenda.

    I'll echo the please and thank you :)
     
  2. Archtkd

    Archtkd 3rd Black Belt

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    I don't think there's need for PMS or e-mails to discuss MT topics if they are posted in the right forums. Your new thread ought to be in the General Korean martial arts section. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/52-Korean-Martial-Arts-General
     
  3. Kong Soo Do

    Kong Soo Do IKSDA Director

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    Whinning, bitching, complaining, sniping, sarcastic remarks, stupid little pictures and hurt feelings aren't MT topics. Someone having a beef with someone else isn't a MT topic. Inserting them into a thread over and over is a juvenille need for attention and an audience. So yes, if someone doesn't like someone else, take it to email or PM and hash it out off-board. That way the topic stays clutter-free. I can't imagine ANYONE feeling otherwise.

    And if a mod thinks the General KMA section is a more appropriate place then I encourage them to move it there. In fact, that is a good idea so other arts can join in as well. Thank you for the suggestion.
    :)
     
  4. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Normally, I might say that that general kma is more appropriate, and from a technical standpoint it is. But you'll probably get more participation if it is posted in the TKD section.
     
  5. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Don't both of these constitute whining, bitching, complaining and sniping?

    I disagree with your assessment and feel that this topic has been very informative.
     
  6. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I wouldn't say that I know him "very well", but we know each other. How that came about was he had a copy of GM HWANG Kee's Tangsoodo Kyobon published in 1958. Dr. He Young Kimm was visiting during his 70th birthday celebration here with his family so I took him to see Goodin Sensei so we could look at the book. We examined it, Dr. Kimm made all kinds of comments explaining this and that, and so Goodin Sensei was kind enough to burn a copy of the book on a cd for us.

    But I was looking at the translation, http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/outline.html and noticed at the very first line, it says:"What is karate? It is the art we exercise mind and body for health promotion in daily life, but in case of emergency it is the art of self-defence without any weapon."

    So according to Miyagi Sensei, karate is "for health promotion in daily life" primarily, and only "in case of emergency it is the art of self-defence without any weapon."

    This by the way, parallels GM LEE Won Kuk's philosophy, summed up in his famous calligraphy "Hwal In Taekwondo", which means Taekwondo is a vehicle of health and long life. So perhaps GM Lee is not as inexperienced as some would like us to believe, that the "applications" of taegeuk 1 jang and all poomsae in taekwondo are there to promote health and long life primarily, and not all these secret hidden reverse engineered applications which were never in there in the first place. Or at least that is what I believe would be GM Lee's response to this thread and the applications of taegeuk 1 jang, which again is in line with Miyagi Sensei's beliefs on the matter, Itosu Sensei's militaristic comments not withstanding.
     
  7. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I don't know. Never really asked about it. If I had to guess, I would say they wanted to standardize the poomsae even more, because I know that stick the non blocking arm straight out thing is in other poomsae now as well. I prefer the old way, because it makes for a smoother transition in my opinion.
     
  8. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Itosu is an interesting figure, from the little I know of him. I believe he was something of an accomplisherd calligrapher and came from an educated background (having studied Chinese Neo-Confucianism). This is, substantially, the same type of education Gen. Choi received, before going to Japan. I wonder if it is coincidence that many of their ideas on martial arts training are similar or the result of their studies.

    I have not read his Ten Precepts before. My thoughts, such as they are, interspersed below.



    Very interesting. While Gen. Choi mentions the health benefits of Taekwon-Do training he also talks about it being for self-defense, and even for protecting other people.



    This reminds me a lot of Gen. Choi's emphasis on dallyon, the forging of attacking and blocking tools. I've had some pretty interesting lessons from my own instructor as well as some other Masters on this topic. Probably not as much as some karateka, but interesting, nonetheless. I do daily dallyon training, although not as much as, say, Morio Higaonna ;) I did have an older Asian gentleman ask me "Do you practice Okinawan karate" not too long ago after he saw my hands. We had an interesting discussion. He had practiced Shito Ryu for a while and seemed surprised that Taekwon-Do encompassed some of the same supplementary training methods.



    Nothing really to add here but just to say, isn't that the truth? Consistent practice leads to all sorts of insights eventually.


    I assume he is referring to the makiwara here when he says "sheaf of straw." It is interesting that, all things considered, he recommends a somewhat low amount of strikes. I have read accounts of early Shotokan/JKA training in Japan where guys would really go to town on the makiwara. I'd rather see the conditioning be built up over time to give the body time to adjust and not suffer serious injuries.

    Similar to what Gen. Choi specifies for posture and some stances (especially sitting stance, IIRC).

    This is very similar to one of Gen. Choi's Training Secrets. It is "To understand the purpose and method of each movement clearly." Another one states: "To choose the appropriate attacking tool for each vital spot," and another one says, "To become familiar with the correct angle and distance for attack and defense."
    Both Gen. Choi and Itosu seem much concerned with proper application.

    Interesting. I think that, in light of #1 above there isn't necessarily a conflict between one's health and "aid to your duty." It seems, rather, a difference in emphasis. YMMV, of course.

    Yep. If karate was only for one's health I don't know that Itosu would suggest training "as if on the battlefield," especially mentioning that you should do so "as if actually facing the enemy," which results in you being "naturally ready" (to defend oneself).

    How do you see this as squaring with the practice of Hojo Undo? Some of the exercises are specifically designed to enhance physical strength, not just the hardening of attacking and blocking tools.

    You know, I just checked a version of this letter online that had Itosu saying such practice would greatly help not only the people engaging in the training be able to defeat ten men (!), but the military as well. The rather understandable desire to de-emphasize militarism post WW II in Japan aside, that is another similarity between Itosu and Gen. Choi. He was very interested in having Korean soldiers benefit from Taekwon-Do training.


    Very interesting. I wasn't aware that he developed kata like this. Are these kata part of the Goju curriculum?



    It's interesting that Miyagi identifies the adoption of karate as a method of physical education as the time when it "won social approval." Before that, when it wasn't seen as such, not so much.


    The link between not only karate but martial arts in general and Zen is an interesting one. I suppose given the development of certain attitudes and abilities it's not necessarily a surprise. Gen. Choi makes the point, however, when he discusses meditation in Taekwon-Do that such meditation is decidely unlike Zen meditation. That being said, one of his calligraphies reads "Self-confidence through intuitive awareness," which is a state of mind at times associated with Zen.​



    With Taekwon-Do the idea of self-development is emphasized to a certain degree simply because Gen. Choi included the Tenets in his books, as well as Moral Culture and the Student Oath. But I have experienced only a very few times when these things received explication as part of class. Recitation of the tenets and student oath, yes. Long lectures on them? No. GM Choi, Jung Hwa will occasionally give a brief talk on Taekwon-Do philosophy during his seminars, but that's something a bit different, IMNSHO (not the least difference being that GM Choi is actually something of as philosopher - pen and sword, who knew?). It's a large group of Taekwon-Doin coming together for a special training. It's not the same thing as a regular class. In the context of the relationship between student and teacher more is caught than taught. And that is maybe not such a bad thing. Seeing one's seniors and how they interact with others, including their instructors, can be quite enlightening if you take the time to watch and learn.

    This is very similar to my experience. I've had some pretty indepth discussions with people about Taekwon-Do philosophy and etiquette (and they were the kind of people who lived it 24/7) but that was all done outside of class.

    Very cool. Are you planning on just training with other Goju Ryu people, or folks from other styles, too?

    My own instructors will let anyone sign up, but eventually the people who aren't into it just stop coming. Nothing is said overtly, really (or very rarely). But then again, neither is there an overt kind of rah-rah attitude when it comes to being "positive." I've seen a little of that at some schools (not ITF schools) and was always a bit put off by it. That could be because of my personality, my own experience in Taekwon-Do training, or whatever but it kind of struck me as not fake, but ... immature, maybe. I don't know. Hard to explain. Hmmm.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  9. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 2nd Black Belt

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    8. When you train, do so as if on the battlefield. Your eyes should glare, shoulders drop, and body harden. You should always train with intensity and spirit as if actually facing the enemy, and in this way you will naturally be ready.

    To me, this matches up very well with sports philosophy. It's very similar to the expression "practice like you play."
    The battlefield comparison probably made more sense at that time, but I don't know how relevant the battlefield is today's students, the vast majority of which have never and will never set foot on a battlefield.
     
  10. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    I enjoyed reading your comments about General Choi and Taekwon-Do.

    I don't necessarily think he was referring to hojo undo. I think he was referring more to esoteric stuff like iron shirt and some elements of qi training.

    Yes. During the development process, Nagamine Sensei designed Fukyugata Dai Ichi and Miyagi Sensei designed Fukyugata Dai Ni. Both forms are still used in their respective systems. Fukyugata Dai Ni by Miyagi is better known now in Goju-ryu as Gekisai Dai Ichi. He later added a Gekisai Dai Ni which is almost the same form but adds open handed techniques and a cat stance. Both Fukyugata forms are frequently used as the first kata in some Shorin-ryu lines, Matsubayashi-ryu obviously being one of them.

    I plan to see Taira Sensei from Goju-ryu for sure. I am close to him lineage-wise and he is an innovator, so I've got to see his stuff in person. Still making inquiries about other opportunities. I am not adverse to seeing other styles (Matsubayashi maybe which I also have a BB in), but I think I would get the most benefit obviously from seeing 1-3 super senior people in Goju and having multiple sessions with them. I've always wanted to learn the Yagi-line kata which are outside of my lineage. Maybe I can arrange to learn one during the trip.
     
  11. chrispillertkd

    chrispillertkd Senior Master

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    Thanks, I figured I'd try to actually relate what I asked about to Taekwon-Do :) Seriously, though, I was rather surprised about the similarities between Gen. Choi and Itosu, both in regards to their backgrounds and their attitudes towards training. I don't have the 1965 book with me right now since I'm not at home at the moment but there are some things in it whcih I'll be interested in checking when I get the chance.

    When you mention the Yagi-line of Goju, I presume you mean the one going back via Yagu Meitatsu? I read an article or two on him many years ago. From an outsider's perspective Okinawan karate seems more akin to how CMA are. There's lots of styles and within them there are lots of lineages. In Praying Mantis, for example, a friend of mine and I were recently discussing a very big difference in how some pretty basic techniques were performed between the Wong Hun Fun line and the Chiu Chi Man line. Even in the ITF(s), which is very, very insistent on standardization you can see differences in the way certain things are performed. If you know where to look you can identify the IX dans people have spent a lot of time training under, too :)) Not huge differences, but they're there if you know where to look.

    Pax,

    Chris
     
  12. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    That's the one. There is an old Journal of Asian Martial Arts article about these kata. Someone who trains in Meibuken Goju-ryu from Australia has stated I was incorrect factually however when I paraphrased what I read from the Journal. The article says Yagi Sensei created the forms and apparently they are actually connected to older Chinese forms if this gentleman is right (I have no reason to assume he is not - he trains in the Meibuken organization).

    Indeed. Goju at least retains a bunch of influences from gong fu, though naturally they have evolved and been corrupted simultaneously over the years. There is extensive use of a hook hand in one of the higher dan kata, though it looks nothing like mantis's (I wouldn't expect it to, since Goju owes its parentage to crane).

    That doesn't surprise me despite your group's desire for standardization. In Goju-ryu, much the same happens. I can tell if someone has trained Jundokan, Meibuken, or Shoreikan. There are certain signatures developed in long-standing practitioners.
     
  13. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    I would agree with that. I felt better touque and power as well. I can see a bit why they would have the arm out as well, if you look at the philosophy of push pull to equate proper power. You would be pulling back that extended arm into the chamber producing "equal" power in the block itself.
     
  14. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    I originally learned that form the old way, and while I found it more intuitive, I do practice it the current way.

    The only practical reason that I can personally think of for it comes out of my kendo background, which is turning to a new direction and maintaining 'guard' by keeping the point up and directed at the opponent one is currently facing.

    In the current practice of iljang, in that sequence, as you turn to face the new opponent, you extend the right arm in the direction of the attacker who's incoming punch you are about to block with your left hand. If there is a reason for this beyond aesthetics, however, I do not know.
     
  15. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    The chamber with the bent arm is the same in my opinion from the straight arm, because the elbow of the pulling arm travels the same distance whether your arm is bent or straight.
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    General Choi did very little, if any, training on the makiwara. There are pictures of General Choi's featuring his hands on desks, but his knuckles were not developed with a makiwara. Instead what he used to do was put out cigarettes on his knuckles to give the appearance of having done makiwara work. That is just one example of the many things wrong with your comparison of General Choi to Itosu Sensei.
     
  17. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    Since the OP wants to analyze application and has claimed Korean Hyung are simply Okinawan kata renamed ... perhaps it would be helpful if we can view a Korean hyung and it's alleged Japanese original version side-by-side, I'd like to respectfully ask Kong Soo Do to please post a video of two examples: One Korean Hyung and the Japanese cousin.

    This would help folks like me whose heritage research is limited.

    Thank you in advance!
     
  18. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    The Taeguks are not rehashed Okinawa forms. The Palgues would be better for that type of comparison or possibly the ITF tul.
     
  19. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    That was addressed a few months ago when the OP made that claim before. I did post video. This has been addressed multiple times.

    Also, Kukkiwon forms are pumsae, not hyeong/hyung. It may seem like quibbling to a non KKW practitioner, but there is a difference, however subtle. Hyeong 형 is the Korean rendering of the kanji: 形, which is pronounced 'kata' in Japanese, and means pattern, like the pattern a tailor would use to make a garment.

    Pumsae (품새) has the following hanja: 品勢, and means "quality forms of strength." Pumsae does is not a Korean rendering of kata and is not a synonym for hyeong.

    I don't know what hanja is used for 'Tul' so I have no comment on that.
     
  20. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    So in KKW, are Hyung (as I understand what you said, *patterns*) shorter in length than Hyung (quality forms of strength)? And what is Tul?
     

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