Pocket sticks, kubotons, koppo...

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by ginshun, Jul 14, 2005.

  1. harold

    harold Green Belt

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    Flashlights, in my opinion are the way to go as they serve a dual purpose of being a control or impact weapon if necessary or blinding and disorienting someone to allow you to escape, and they can go anywhere!
     
  2. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    And they help you see in the dark, too!
     
  3. BLACK LION

    BLACK LION Black Belt

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    I carry a dark ops hellfighter x-12... striker bezel and 150+ lumens of blinding light.

    Its about as thick as a roll of quarters so its solid in the hands.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    If carrying a pocketknife is illegal, then there are many people walking around that should probably be in jail. We're talking about a pocket knife, swiss army knife, etc., not a meat cleaver. The big difference, AFAIK, is the blade length. As for the grip, that you seemed confused on, take a look at this pic. Notice the ridges on that? That is what lklawson was talking about. That will not be on a dowel, unless you take the time to put it there. As for cost...here, here and here. Out of those, the last one, was the most expensive, coming in at a whopping $10. There are some flashlights that are expensive, but you could probably go to any store and pick one up for a fairly inexpensive price and perfectly legal to carry. Of course, as I said, the more expensive ones put out alot of power, so using that in a blinding fashion is a great SD resource and again, legal to carry.

    As for people misunderstanding you...I notice in many of your posts, you get a bit of an attitude if someone disagrees, misunderstand, etc. No need for that. Understand that a) this is the net, so its often hard, at times, for people to understand the point that is trying to be made and b) perhaps its not the other person, but maybe, its the way YOU are wording your posts. Additionally, people will disagree. Nothing wrong with that, and debate is more than welcome. Lets just keep it civil. :)
     
  5. CuongNhuka

    CuongNhuka Senior Master

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    There's a local law that says if you have a concealed weapon, some part must be exposed. If you go back and read Ginshun's post, he has a picture with a clip exposed. Thats what's expected. My freinds going into law told me there have been a few cases in the area where someone was charged with intimidation and threatening people solely on those grounds. The cases were overtured, but I have no money for a lawyer, so I don't even want to risk it.

    If this conversation was being held in real life, you'd have probably geussed I meant that less as 'I don't understand', and more of 'are you serious?. I thought if I said that, it would be precieved as more rude.

    Again, that I've seen. I've also never bothered to look for one to buy, since I can easily make my own (heck, I still have some dowel left over from when I made my last pair). And even if not, my Sensei has a bag of about 30 that he uses when he teaches Seminars, I'm sure he'd be happy to give my a pair. Making a set out of an old dowel is free, and doesn't take too much time, I simply don't see the point of buying one.
     
  6. nelsonkari

    nelsonkari Yellow Belt

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    I carry a flashlight made for the pocket out of spun aircraft aluminum. My keys hang outside of the pocket to make it easy to open doors. The light makes an excellent tool for pressure manipulation and the keys make an extremely effective mace. I would have no problem facing a knife with my little "buddy" or any other weapon in an appropriate situation. My keyring is handmade and extra heavy by the way.

    Tak Kubota years ago put out a book for LE on the Kobotan. I carried one for years until it broke in a non tac situation. With aluminum you don't have that problem. As a plus the krypton bulb is a good blinding agent and can be easily followed up with an upward mace attack. To a citizen it is just a flashlight.

    A steel ballpoint pen is also a great choice for a harmless looking backup weapon. Worn clipped to the collar it looks like you are ready to take "notes" on the fly.

    Nelson Kari
     
  7. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    What the hell is a person "going into law"? Are we talking law school students? Pre-law? Criminal justice? I said they're not likely good sources for legal advice; there's a huge difference from learning a few of the basics and actually knowing what you're doing in the field. In fact, I recall an incident in my area some years ago where a dumb kid screwed his future royally by deciding to help his buddy out with a ticket. Showed up in court, had a stack of books... but something about what he was asking and how he was doing it didn't ring true. He got asked if he'd passed the bar... and it came to light that he was a community college criminal justice student. OOPS. Not only did it not help his buddy -- but he got a felony arrest, to boot!

    I'd love to see a case where a person was charged with any sort of intimidation or menacing (and the code involved!) for a knife in the pocket, unless it's somehow part of an incident like a robbery where a clear threat is implied by the action. For example, a bad guy has gun or knife in their waist band, raises the shirt to show it, and demands money.

    But that's a damn far sight from simply carrying a knife clipped into your pocket!
     
  8. CuongNhuka

    CuongNhuka Senior Master

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    What if the guy learning 'a few of the basics' asks his proffessor, who teaches part time and is a full time trial lawyer? I had a few freinds ask different Profs to see if they would all say about the same thing. It was actually in reference the law concerning the clip showing of a pocket knife, this was brought up by a few of the professors. Also, most the cases (from my understanding) were civil suits. I'm not a Law major, and I don't know any law profs, so I couldn't give you anything specific, just what I've been told.
     
  9. Skpotamus

    Skpotamus Brown Belt

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    Ask them to cite the "local law" in question so you can look it up yourself. I've been told by LEO's and the county prosecutor that openly carrying firearms was illegal, the state law says differently. I asked them to cite the law, they sait it was a local ordinance (which the state law specifically pre-empted), and I asked about the ordinance itself so I could look it up. They hemmed and hawed about it a bit, then changed the subject, turns out there is NO LAW in my area about it at all. They just don't think people should carry openly and try to discourage it.

    What state do you live in? You can go to your attorney generals web page and access your state laws from there.

    Civil law is completely different from criminal law. You can sue anybody for anything, whether it's stupid or not.
     
  10. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Civil law and criminal law are vastly different things...

    Criminal laws are about public wrongs; the underlying "victim" of any crime is technically society, in the person of the immediate victim. Crimes occur when someone either does something that is prohibited by laws, or fails to do something required by law, and are punished by incarceration and/or fines. With the exception of a true Common Law environment -- the laws have to be written down.

    Civil law is about wrongs between people themselves. You can sue anyone for anything, if you can define the "wrong" done. I could, in theory, sue you for rampant spelling errors, as the bother and annoy me. The case would probably not get very far, and I'd look like an ***... but it's possible. Recall the multi-million dollar pants lawsuit in DC... Civil cases end in awards to balance the costs -- usually measured in dollars.

    I suppose it's possible that someone sued someone else over displaying a knife clip... I doubt it went very far at all... I don't see it being likely, though.

    You're relying on a student to accurately report back what a teacher said (and I'm very skeptical that several students asked several professors...) and to explain it to you when they still don't understand it. Would you expect a brand new student to be able to teach a technique to another new student in your training hall?
     
  11. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    Ok, then its pretty simple, if thats all thats needed to make it legal.


    As it was already said by those with more law experience, each case, each lawyer, will most likely differ. I'm not seeing how a knife, clipped to the inside of a pant pocket, would be considered intimidation or threatening, unless a comment was made about it, or a movement to grab and use the weapon.



    Well, at the moment, we're on the forum, so I had to interpret what I thought you meant.



    Buy, make your own...either way, in the end, the time and money put into the project will most likely work out to be the same.
     
  12. Brian Jones

    Brian Jones Blue Belt

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    I'm a big fan of Kelly Worden's Travel Wrench. Comes in a couple variations, all good.
     
  13. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    And I'm saying that's bogus advice. The proper advice is that if you feel the need to carry around a tool for self defense then carry around a tool for self defense. The fact is that your LEO/semi-LEO/Legally-interested friends are not all that useful for telling you what you will or will not have to man up for. Barring laws specifically making it illegal to carry a Self Defense Tool, your LEGAL DEFENSE for carrying a Self Defense Tool is "Self Defense." Your LEGAL DEFENSE for USING a Self Defense Tool are the four pillars of justifiable self defense. In other words, unless it's already against the law, go ahead and carry it if you feel the need and if you ever have to deploy it to defend yourself, THAT is the justification for using it: Self Defense. Just make darn sure it really was Self Defense.


    Yeah. Neither seem to be based on what actually happens in SD situations. Instead of asking a few of your maybe-LEO-type friends, take some time to study actual case law. It's easily available now days and publications such as American Handgunner as well as organizations such as The NRA make a point of collecting and providing it.

    Where LEOs come into the picture is that they're the guys on the street charged with enforcing the law. Sad thing is, they don't always know the exact specifics of the law and are encouraged by higher ups to just arrest when in doubt. To be fair, that makes a lot of sense. An arrest isn't a conviction and they can always let you go without charging you later and it's better than letting someone go and then regretting it later.

    Charged or Convicted? Two different things. Again, bear in mind that if an LEO wants to arrest you for something, you're GOING TO BE ARRESTED. So always be respectful and don't piss 'em off. They've got a tough enough job to do. And that's without taking into consideration that some are just going to be power-adicted jerks (though most aren't).

    Now, I'll stippulate that even being Charged can be a monumental hasstle, but that's not the same thing as being Convicted.

    So? Not sure how this is any sort of real problem. Pocket clips on SD knives are common as lies to a politician.

    Great! I'm quite satisfied with that. Again, if you are comfortable with that device and skill set, I'm not going to argue with you about that. My nit-to-pick has to do with your advice to others against specific SD tools based on the questionable statements by "LEO friends." The advice is spurious.



    Dude, chill.

    That's nice.

    Look, I'm a fan of "improvised weapons" but only to a limited extent. Understand that improvised weapons will never be as servicable as tools specifically designed as weapons. If you can shoe-horn annother tool in as a weapon and make it work, fantastic. I do the same thing from time to time due to dictates of the situation, location, or law. But understand that a pen isn't a good a kopo stick as, well, an actual kopo stick. And a kopo stick isn't as good a SD tool as a large stick, which isn't as good as a firearm. There's a whole continuum.

    Sounds like it's just their opinion that they don't want you armed. Unless there's law against it, then it's just what they want. If you want to go that route, then, by all means, go ahead. But advising others the same for those reasons is falicious.

    "Get away with it"?!?!?! I've not yet seen a law where a tac. flashy was illegal. Might as well say "sure you could get away with driving a car, walking down the street, or breathing." C'mon now. As for expensive, well that's entirely your definition. But you dont' have to spend $100 on a good tac flashy. The local Target arround here sells Innova LED flahshies ranging from 2.8 up to 5.2 Watts for from ~$40 to ~$65 and you can get 1 Watt 2AA Maglites for around $15 so I'm not sure why you think you have to drop a C-note on a good Kuboton sized flashy.


    Let me introduce you to Google.

    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=kubotan&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g10&fp=leBsIIJAIN0

    Fourth down, "shopping results" immediately lists THREE for under $4 each. The second link lists three additional for under $3 each.

    Dude. I need to start selling crap in magazines. Apparently you can make a serious killing at it.


    Ridges or cuts made into the cylinder intended to allow the fingers to fit in to enhance grip or friction patterns etched onto the surface, also intended to enhance grip. It allows double ended use of the Yawara without having to cap the end with your thumb. Very common on retail products but represents a more complex and difficult step for the home-made enthusiast.


    The '80s. Yes, I've been around that long.


    Then you just ain't look'n.


    And, as I've said, pens don't work as well without spending a bit more. The Cold Steel Sharkie is a good example. It's a lot more expensive than a standard marker, but it'll hold up way better. It's still a lot less expensive than the price-point you keep proposing.

    Now, like I said, I have friends that have purchased pens in the price range of hundreds of dollars to use as Kubotans. They're expensive, designer pieces but durable as the moon.

    Nevertheless, the primary point on this side of the topic is that you don't have to spend much money at all, under $5, to get a Kubotan and some folks don't want to use their time, or don't have the skills to make their own. If you want to, that's great. I like making my own. But I understand that some people have very good reasons for not.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2009
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  14. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Then you need to re-read some reasons that I posted. The abbreviated version is:

    • Some folks don't have the skills.
    • Some folks don't have the time.
    If you had a 9-5 job, wife, kids, ran a MA club/school, were involved in your church, kids events, etc. You might consider the fact that your job pays you $30 an hour, making a Kubotan on your own takes between 20 min. (if you've already got all the eq and materials) and 1 hour, and that you have lots of other draws on your time. Suddenly a $5-$10 purchase seems like a pretty good idea. Now, on the other hand, if you're 19 years old, have no family to care for, little money, a part time job (at most), and can spend whatever free time you like in your Sensei's Dojo, making one yourself instead of buying might seem like the better idea.

    The fact that you seem to refuse to consider this is a bit surprising. Or maybe not. Experience is a great teacher, after all.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  15. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    P.S.,

    BTW, if you really want to save a bit of cash, don't buy "Hardwood Dowels." Instead, buy "Broom Handles." They're hardwood, usually Ash, and cheaper than craft dowels. They also typically come with a preservative finish on them. I hate the finish and sand it off, but you might choose to leave it on.

    You'll save dollars per foot that way.

    Oh, and avoid "Closet Rods" too, except for training. They're not usually Hardwood. Softwood is OK for training (in kubotan size) but Hardwood is, obviously, better for actual use.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  16. Stickgrappler

    Stickgrappler Purple Belt

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    i was going to post that i recently bought a hard plastic kubotan keychain for $7 from the Dog Brothers site.... looks like i overpaid... lol @ me.
     
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  17. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Nothing wrong with funneling a few extra shekels to the DB guys. They've got good stuff in general and their Kubotan looks like decent quality (at least from the pics). Do they also have steel or alluminum?

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  18. Stickgrappler

    Stickgrappler Purple Belt

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    hello Kirk,

    re: aluminum or steel -- i believe it's only hard plastic. there is a rubber trainer available also.

    http://dogbrothers.com/store/index.php?cPath=45&osCsid=549c6f5bf5ebc1276db77cdd98848e3c

    very truly yours in the MA,

    ~sg



    p.s. anyone with good dan bong references, please post. would like to get some dan bong links into the list i posted. or for that matter, any other good yawara/koppo/kubotan links to add, please do.123
     

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