What's a weapon and is it legal to carry?

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by Bill Mattocks, Feb 26, 2019.

  1. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    The line after the CFR is confusing to me. Where is says "intended to be used". In the essence of where you live, if I unintentionally kill someone with my electric cattle dehorner, say by electrocution or burning, how would that be perceived? Is that lawyer speak to use for or against someone?
     
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    True lol

    This is how I see it too. I try not to irritate them. I want the officer in a good mood when they are talking to me lol. So far I've only had toe deal with 1 A-hole officer. It was for a speeding ticket that I got when I wasn't speaking. Officer lied all the way through, and then when I asked him did he clock me when I was moving towards him or when I passed him, He couldn't answer that question, But he claimed he knew which position my car was in relation to other people. That's when I learned first hand about the practices of Police Quotas. But the rest are cool. A-holes are A-holes regards of what uniform they are wearing or not wearing.

    That may be a big gamble for the officer. To harass you about a cane and to put you in a position where you produce medical records which end up proving that he was harassing you. That is something that could spiral out of control, especially if you injured yourself as a result of officer taking the cane away from you. And all of that over a cane and a guy with bad knees.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I read it as anything thing used to in a manner that you intend to cause harm. So my stone massage stone becomes a weapon at the moment I use it or threaten to use it to cause harm. But it's not a weapon if I yell to you "hey catch" , you miss it and it hits you in your head. There would be other laws for that type of behavior if they find that the behavior is negligence (or whatever the term is lol). So if I did the same thing with a knife and it stuck you in your eye, then they would look at the intent. Was I purposely trying to stick it in your eye to cause harm or did I have negligent behavior which caused you harm. It's still can be a crime but it's not a "Weapon's based crime."

    My guess is this would depend on your motive and the context of which it happened. For example, if you threw it on the back seat of your car and you didn't secure it and someone sits down on it or picks it up then it will probably not be seen as a weapon. But if you place it where you knew it would cause harm for the intent of causing harm to other's then it will satisfy the weapon status.

    Take a medical needle. Doctors and nurses stab people with those all the time. However it's not used to cause harm. But if you do the same to someone in public for the purpose of causing harm then the same needle is now a weapon. If you kept a punch of those at the bottom of a box and I stuck my hand in the box and got stuck, then you might be at risk of a criminal charge, but not a weapons charge. If you hid the needles int he seat at a movie theater because you know people will get hurt with them then it's a weapon. even if no one sits on them, it is still clear that you intended for someone to be hurt via a weapon "it is used or intended to be used, is calculated or likely to produce death or great bodily harm."

    I could be wrong but that's how I read it. Otherwise doctors and nurses would be going to jail every time someone gets a shot.
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh, that's definitely true. And, as has bee said, most cops are good people trying to do good. But in any group of people, there will be some who aren't so good...and even some who do things that are both foolish and not in their own best interest.
     
  5. mrt2

    mrt2 Purple Belt

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    You pretty much have it. The last part of the statute is designed to deal with things that are not weapons but can be used as weapons under certain circumstances. Hammers, screwdrivers, baseball bats, rocks, kitchen knives. All can be used as weapons even though they were not designed as such. So mere possession of these items wouldn't result in a charge, but could under the right circumstances.
     
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  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    True. LE officers are human and as such will make mistakes from time to time. The glaring difference I hear in the conversation is not acknowledging intended purpose. When your job entails a considerable portion of you day dealing with the worst kind of people, it is difficult not to have a hard edge. Often you will be dealing with good people who have been thrown into bad situations (wrecks, break ins, assaults, etc...) and their bad side comes out. An officer has to deal with this dynamic as best he/she can but has to stay in control of a situation for everyone's benefit. Too often this is not acknowledged and people get bent out of shape when a situation doesn't go the way of their narrow minded narrative. It is entirely possible the officer who just pulled you over came from a fatality accident or domestic disturbance. They deserve the benefit of doubt just like the rest of us. And just like many of us, they are under paid and over worked. Above reproach? That is subjective and where I think the problem usually lies.
    I do live by the edict of treating people the way I want to be treated but try not to get bent out of shape when it doesn't happen.
     
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  7. mrt2

    mrt2 Purple Belt

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    Or they just need to have their guard up. Even the most innocuous traffic stop can turn deadly in the blink of an eye if you are not paying attention. I am not a cop, but I do have to deal with accused criminals, and I try not to forget that
     
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  8. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Not making a point, but curious about the situation.

    Coincidentally I happened to be reading about coyote habits just a couple weeks ago. There is a long history of conflict with the coyote, as I am sure you know.

    What has also been documented is that a lot of coyote “kills” have been discovered to have been scavenges, where the coyote did not make the kill, but it was easy to make the assumption that they did.

    So I was curious about what is happening in your area. That includes wondering how kills are verified as having been done by coyotes, or if people are acting on assumption. That would also include wondering what preventative steps the cattle farmers take to prevent the kills in the first place (things that might not include preemptively shooting the coyotes), and whether there is any attempt to identify a coyote that has actually made a kill before shooting it, or it all coyotes are considered fair game, no matter what.

    You did mention that you carry a loaded rifle in you truck, in case you see a coyote. So I thought I’d inquire.
     
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  9. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    What I was getting at was the common sense approach. If your excuse for carrying something doesn't really make sense it can open you up to liability in areas. Like you said, if I'm carrying around a big rolled up magazine at night it makes it harder to explain away if I'm not by public transportation lines that I would be riding to be doing any reading. The rolled magazine is something that many bodyguards do in areas that they can't carry, there is a lot of sitting and the reason holds up.
     
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  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Quite true. There are a lot of LEOs in my family. My mother, two of her brothers, one of my kids, a couple cousins...
    One of my uncles was State Patrol. He pulled a guy over for a burned out taillight and got shot. Happily, the bad guy leaned out and shot him while he was still back by his car instead of waiting till he was standing at the bad guys window. Wilbur (my uncle, not the talking horse) got hit in the upper arm, but was ultimately fine.
    Turned out the bad guy had some warrants that he didn't want to deal with.
     
  11. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Coyote's are fair game. We also have kills from red headed buzzards and, believe it or not bald eagles. Of course we don't shoot at the eagles but I have video of them perched near recent births. I think it is a very different dynamic here. I cannot overstate the number of road kills of various animals we have here. It gets crazy when deer are moving and breeding. It is more than an inconvenience, it is too often a matter of life and death. And yes, many farmers have chased coyotes away while trying to make a kill. I guess you could call it profiling if you have to give it a name but that is what they do. It is estimated that for every coyote killed in TN, six are taking its place.
    Several years ago (about 40 years) black birds got so bad here that the government started paying a dime for every one killed. A dime in the 1970's was worth the effort. We even had scheduled gatherings on main thoroughfares to eradicate them is was so bad. It took years but it did work.
     
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  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Meanwhile. Over our side of the world. 20190302_093723.jpg
     
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  13. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    What if a "gang member" said that next time you and him meet, he will kill you? Which one is more important, to protect your life, or to worry about the legal issue (assume you live in a country that firearm is not allowed)?
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2019
  14. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Presuming the conditions you posit, I'd report his threat to the police, and take steps to avoid running into him. If he made contact with me and attempted to assault me, I'd leave if I could, and if I could not leave, I'd defend myself to the best of my ability.
     
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  15. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I was in a similar situation where I was threaten, on my job by someone in the neighborhood. I told the police and they said there was nothing they could do. He told me to do what I need to do in order to protect myself and that it was better to defend myself and have the courts decide if my actions were legal then to not defend myself and be dead. While he didn't say these exact works about protecting myself, It's exactly what he meant when he told me "It's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6"

    After that day my car gained some new items commonly not used as weapons, but would be than enough to increase my odds of survival in a bad situation. This was one of those situations where I wasn't allowed to carry weapons on the property. I couldn't leave. I was fortunate that one of my supervisors grew up with one of the head gang members in the area. Not sure what the conversation was, but after my supervisor said "I know who he (the guy threatening me) runs with. I'll talk to him (leader of the group).", I never had anymore problems.

    The day I got threaten was the same day my co-worker got threaten. He called his family and the family got their crew and drove up in the neighborhood 6 cars deep with weapons. The point is that sometimes the right action may not be the least confrontational. It just depends on the situation and the restrictions of the situation. That's the most difficult thing about self-defense. It rarely runs out like a script where one can follow steps 1 - step 6 and be safe. Things such as your size, gender, age, health, race, or physical look, etc. can mean that you'll have some options that someone else doesn't have or it could mean that things become more dangerous quickly because of your disadvantages. There's really no once size fits all. It's like traveling to a store that's 100 miles a way, many ways to get to the goal.

    By the way I'm agreeing what you say. Just using your comment to highlight some of the complexities of self-defense.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    SD people don't like to talk about the "Bus 44" clip. If you have a big knife like this with you, you can save many life in that bus.

     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2019
  17. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Life is not a movie.
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What makes you say something like that about "SD people", as if it's a homogenous group? That's a pretty shallow view, IMO.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Because the term SD mean to defense yourself and not to defend the others.

    "Defend good against evil" can be a better term.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's what the term means, but I doubt you'd find that "SD people" have a common reaction to much else. In fact, most "SD people" I know do talk about the concept of defending others. Self-defense, as a concept, is not exclusive of defending others.
     
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