Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by Apollo, Apr 25, 2006.

  1. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    As I said before, if it buys me a few seconds in between moves, I'm all for using it. Even if I was not able to pull a move off while rolling, I feel that it would prove to be a good tool to strike with. While its smaller than a Kali stick, the Dog Bros. have found some use to grappling with a stick.

    Basically, if I was in that awkward of a position, I'm going to use whatever I can to aid in getting to a more superior position.

    Just my .02.

    Mike
     
  2. Jonathan Randall

    Jonathan Randall Senior Master

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    I would be interested to know why they carried them if they did not add something to their abilities?
     
  3. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I still think you are far safer legally in most cases with a pocket stick like a mini mag light than with a knife. The whole concept of a knife is that it is a lethal weapon. If you can't show a need to kill the other guy, you can't use the knife at all. You do not use a knife to try to wound. It is designed for killing and that is it's purpose. By comparison, if you keep your keys on a key ring attached to a mini flashlight, you can honestly say you hit the guy with it because your keys were in your hand when the attack went down. Try giving that excuse with a knife.

    Oh, and I sometimes leave the house without my knife even though it is a utility one. But to leave my house without my keys is somewhat rare. And if you ever had to find a key hole in the dark, you will swear by having a flashlight attached to them. I have no trouble letting people know I have a flashlight on me. But I think they may think of me like a dangerous beast if they knew of my knife. Back in high school I tried to be a tough young buck. Now I am just trying to appear as normal and plain vanilla as I can. I don't need to prove my masculinity and am far less insecure than puberty.

    And then there are other factors about using a killing weapon. People do not like to kill other people. That seems like an obvious statement. But it is kind of like saying that people don't like high places. It is one thing to understand it, and another to stand at the side of a tall building and look over the edge.

    Whenever I hear people say things like, "I would just shoot the jerk" I know they have never looked over the sights of a loaded firearm at another person. So many sites on the internet seem to attract young studs trying to impress each other with just how bad they all are- but I know they have never looked over the edge.

    Facts back this up. S.L.A. Marshall found that only a small number of men in combat during WWII would even fire their rifles. Dave Grossman recounts tale after tale of people who would go out of their way to not shoot at the enemy even when they were being fired on. The most killing in war comes from artillary, because of the distance and disassociation. The closer you get to the person you need to kill, the less eager you are to do it.

    Police look on folks that use knives automatically as bad guys because to get so close that you can smell the other guys breath and still slice him is pretty much a sign of determination to kill. Some people can't do it even to save their lives.

    And that is where the disadvantages of knives can come in and the strengths of weapons that are not designed to kill show themselves.

    Can you kill? People can say all they want, but someone who has never been over ten feet can say that they could do a dance on the edge of the Empire State building. Those that have actually been there know better. And unless you have been there- you really do not know what you will do or not when you pull your knife.

    I know I could use a knife if myself or my family were in danger. But unless it is a pretty clear case, I know from experience that I will not drop the hammer on someone even when the law and morallity say it is a viable option and I take one hell of a risk not blowing the other guy to hell.

    But beat the bejeezus out of him with a metal flashlight? No problem.

    Oh yeah, I got the possibilty of a 400+ pound ninja- wanna- be flying into Japan next Sunday to look me up. You can bet that if it comes down to violence I would use a flashlight on him without hesitation even if he obviously has no weapons. No hesitation. But even with what the law calls a 'disparity of force' I do not think I would use a knife on someone in that case. And I do not expect people to show me their weapons until we are engaged and when I engage I do not expect to be able to drop one weapon and pick up another. If I start a fight with this psycofraud with a flashlight in my hands, it will be what I use instead of the knife I carry even if he then whips one out himself.

    People do not like killing other people. They do not like the idea of using a weapon that most likely could kill the other person. People tell themselves they can kill and use deadly weapons, but in actual situations the only people that really could do so are barely human. Sociopaths. Animals.

    There is much less hesitation to use a weapon like a pocket stick when there is a chance of grave bodily harm. People have had deadly weapons in their hands and still died because they did not have the will to use them. You have more options on the table when you have a non-lethal weapon than having to make the choice to take someone's life.

    And it strikes me that we may be looking at some problems with terms and definitions and stuff like that.

    Let me digress and try to lay down some explinations of what I mean. I have tires on my car. There are tires on Formula 1 race cars and interstate trucks. You can't use one type of tire on another vehicle. You can't put my tires on a truck and you can't improve my car's speed by putting the tires from the F-1 on. All three types are not wrong or right and each do their job very, very well. But they are designed from the ground up to do very different things and that difference is reflected even in things like tires.

    I come from an art that was built around the reality of weapons. The other guy may have them, I may have them, maybe we both have them- or not. Mardi GrasBandit and Ronin Pimp probably do not have the same background as I do. We all use the same terms like "grappling" but the things we base things on are all very different.

    I have a tape I was watching where the teacher demonstrates why certain moves with a short stick will not work. When I saw him show them, my thought was, "why isn't he moving anything other than his arms?" The way he does things, everything is on a very stable base, but not one that co-ordinates the entire body or manuevers as much as mine. The problem this guy had was that he was trying to take the tires from one type of vehicle and put it on another.

    So I suspect that those that can't get what they see in books and videos are doing things based on their past experiences with their arts and like the guy whose tape I have are just not able to understand a totally different gestalt. Coming from a non-weapon oriented art, or an art that has evolved under situations where weapons are not a factor, they just lack the background to see the things I take for granted.

    And that is why everyone is getting so frustrated.
     
  4. WingChun Lawyer

    WingChun Lawyer Green Belt

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    Ok, now THAT answer was indeed very good Don.

    It seems you are addressing the knife vs poicket stick issue from a psychological point of view, one I had not addressed in my question. Nonetheless it is an interesting and relevant point of view to the discussion at hand.

    And, of course, and AFAIK, I believe you are right. I am not sure if I could slice someone up even if my life depended on it, but clubbing someone is easier.

    I still believe that, if I was actually that worried about self defense, it would be a better trade off for me to learn some Kali, lose my fear of knifes, and start carrying one, as opposed to carrying a pocket stick and learning how to use it.

    But I do believe I understand where you are coming from, yes. Thanks for your time.

    PS: I could always carry a switchblade as a keyholder! ;)
     
  5. Flatlander

    Flatlander Grandmaster

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    Actually, I'm pretty sure that if you learned Kali, you wouldn't have to separately learn how to use a pocket stick. It's part and parcel with learning the FMA. Mind you, it probably looks nothing like the koppojutsu to which Don refers.
     
  6. WingChun Lawyer

    WingChun Lawyer Green Belt

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    Really? Interesting. Still, sadly, there are no Kali places close to my place, I checked...
     
  7. Phil Elmore

    Phil Elmore Master of Arts

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    Ralph?
     
  8. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Naw. This is an even stranger tale.

    Make some space in your private message box and I will send you the hysterical details.
     
  9. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    Given the wide range of opinions on pocket sticks here...I have a question for you all.

    What has one got to lose by carrying......or not carrying......a pocket stick? What are the risks here?
     
  10. Jonathan Randall

    Jonathan Randall Senior Master

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    Overconfidence in a tool - if you have not been trained with it. Legal complications that can arise from one that "looks" like a "dangerous weapon" to a frightened public. Solution: aquire some good, specific training in its use and consider what Don Roley and I have constantly suggested - a small sticklike object that does not look like a martial art's weapon, yet could be used as one, and that you could justify carrying for other reasons.
     
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  11. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    An excellent possible solution is the PROTEK key..Log onto www.pps-selfdefense.com and check it out..It looks like an oversized industral size padlock key and it's applications are unlimited...The airlines won't let me carry my kubotan that is attached to my keys onboard but they haven't looked twice at the PROTEK..
     
  12. RoninPimp

    RoninPimp Brown Belt

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    -I think that's a bad strategy imo. So a stick helps your striking, but if you're taking time to draw it when you could be striking empty hands or drawing a lethal weapon you're wasting time imo. No argument from me that that is your right though. And the grappling the Dog Brothers do with sticks won't carry over. No fang choke with a 6" stick.
     
  13. RoninPimp

    RoninPimp Brown Belt

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    -A cop using a pocket stick doesn't mean it carries over to civilian SD. The cop's job and legal obligations are way different that a civilian's.
     
  14. RoninPimp

    RoninPimp Brown Belt

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    -The following is quoted on the site Drac linked..."If properly used and trained with this tool, even a child can escape from the attack of a full grown man." That is complete and utter BS. It is also irresponsible imo. The video is also a joke. This is one more piece of evidence showing why I believe pocket sticks are WAY over rated.
     
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  15. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    Personally, I think with your extremely limited experience using short sticks that you don't have a leg to stand on and your arguments are dubious at best.

    Also ... every single citizen has a legal responsibility to use force in a careful progression just as every LEO does.

    I fail to see how you can feel so comfortable arguing against a weapon you haven't had expert and lengthy training with.
     
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  16. Kenpodoc

    Kenpodoc 2nd Black Belt

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    You've made your point forcefully and clearly. Many disagree with you and you disagree with them. Please respect their right to disagree. I would be interested to understand why this topic draws such fervor from you. Personal experience?

    Jeff
     
  17. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I'm thinking, most likely an alternate agenda.
     
  18. RoninPimp

    RoninPimp Brown Belt

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    -I've never disrespected anybody's right to believe anything. That website claims a kid can defend himself or herself from an adult with a big aluminum key. That is an outright lie. If somebody trys that rather than run. They could die in the worst case.
     
  19. RoninPimp

    RoninPimp Brown Belt

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    -I have not wasted much time with lame drills with a pocket stick. People claim to spar hard with them, but never go into detail. My hunch is that those with "expert and lengthy training" are only doing the bad drills like I have done, and like posted in the bad videos. I have yet to see any claims of Dog Brothers esque sparring with pocket sticks.
     
  20. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    Which has nothing to do with this thread or your opinions on short stick fighting. Stay on topic with us here. Your experience is extremely limited and your arguments dubious - what say you now on this topic?123
     

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