How much does cutting food help with learning blade fighting fundamental and honing general pre-existing fencing skills (in particular knives)?

[Bullsherdog]

Volunteered to help out at a neighbors house tonight for a party and I had to cut a bunch of different food. I'm not trained any form of fighting and I'm not a cullinary person either. However in cutting radish and potatoes which I thought would be a cakewalk, I was surprised how much my bit larger and heavier than average kitchen knife (sorry don't know enough chef knowledge to specify what it was and I'm on the phone right now as I type this, soon to join some drinking before the main dinner) got stuck into the vegetables and I had to take them out. Had quite a bit of difficulty with 3 pieces until my friend showed me some tricks and voila I cut through them easily. Next was cutting boned meat. The bones were hmuch thinner in this meat so when my friend cut apart the first meat chunk into pieces I thought again its gonna be child's play. I ended up embarrasing myself because I couldn't cut any of the boned slaps into slices and instead I ended up ruining a few whole chunks because when I blade didn't cut them, they it slid into the meat or cut out smaller bits.

My friend came back to see the progress after preparing the ice for the party and he told me I have to put force into it and showed me specific places and a very precise kind of motion to chop the meat. I quickly learned and thus handled the rest of the meat cutting while he did other chores.

Last part was filleting some boneless pork. I asked him how this time isntead of assuming it'd be easyand he showed me anand thus I learned how to cut out very prcisely the pork fat flesh.

There were more skills I learned that might be useful for martial arts things, but I'm wondering if cutting foods for culinary purposes would be a good beginner's point to learn the skill of fighting with blades? I always heard the word edge alignment thrown around in videos and learning to cut the vegetables made me realize the importance of it (and thats with me not even watching and reading martial arts stuff to get clarification of whats that actually means). The mention of how to hit with power? I'm wondering if hacking apart the boned meats (weaker bones granted) showed the importance of "hitting with power" as some martial artist Youtubers in their videos on swordfighting? Precise cuts and other agile sophisticated eloquent techniques I assume have a relationship to fillet and other more very articulate cutting methods in cooking?

I'm super curious on this so I'm curious if kitchen work would be a pretty good starting point for learning the nature of blades and if they'd help experienced martial artists improve their skill as a side job or hobby in their freetime (in particular with knives)?

 

[Buka]

Comparing the experience gained from cutting vegetables to knife fighting is like comparing watching an episode of The Little Rascals to what it's like actually raising multiple children in your home.

 

[Flying Crane]

Instead of looking for a bizarre shortcut to work an end-run around the learning process, you should just find a good teacher and start training. None close by? That sucks, but sometimes that is life. See what is available.

 

[frank raud]

A cleaver or boning knife is not a sword, nor should your grip be the same. I personally wouldn't reccommend a filleting knife for self defense, but if it's all you got, it's all you got. If you think using a knife on vegetables or meat will make you a superior knifer, I question both your cooking skills and your capabilities as a knifer.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Butchers are probably the most skilled people on earth with knives and cleavers. I would never want to near a butcher that was angry with me and armed.

Food for thought.

All that said, kitchenwork in and of itself is one of the most challenging and valuable training environments, and you can learn lots of skills, not the least of which is calm and patience, which some would argue is the most important martial skill.

Keep volunteering, you'll make lots of friends.

 

[mograph]

I think that a chef's knife skills would only be useful in combat if his opponent were unconscious on the table in front of him.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The skills are incredibly different. Especially if you are comparing it to fencing, where most related weapons to my knowledge are closer to parrying/thrusting weapons, the skills would not translate well.

That said, being able to handle a knife, and being comfortable with one, would always be useful when training using a knife. But you can get those skills at the same time as related skills by training the art you want to actually train.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The skills are incredibly different. Especially if you are comparing it to fencing, where most related weapons to my knowledge are closer to parrying/thrusting weapons, the skills would not translate well.

That said, being able to handle a knife, and being comfortable with one, would always be useful when training using a knife. But you can get those skills at the same time as related skills by training the art you want to actually train.

I gonna have to disagree with you a little here.

Most martial artists don't learn real knife, blade, or butchering skills. They think they are, but they are really lying to themselves. Cutting air? Pretending with plastic or wood? They'll bleed out before they ever lay a blade on a human being.

They learn some anachronistic version of cutting into actual people, and a lot of it is ridiculous.

How many fencers have ever cut into flesh? Very few.

Who would you rather fight bare handed? Fencer with a foil, and rapier even? or a meaty butcher with a fat 12+ inch ka-bar?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Only If the cutting resembles fighting with a knife. that's why we don't hear legends about the famous cook who rode into battle and killed everyone with his kitchen knife.

Think of it this way. People do martial arts for years and still can't fight well. But they are good with the martial arts forms.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I gonna have to disagree with you a little here.

Most martial artists don't learn real knife, blade, or butchering skills. They think they are, but they are really lying to themselves. Cutting air? Pretending with plastic or wood? They'll bleed out before they ever lay a blade on a human being.

They learn some anachronistic version of cutting into actual people, and a lot of it is ridiculous.

How many fencers have ever cut into flesh? Very few.

Who would you rather fight bare handed? Fencer with a foil, and rapier even? or a meaty butcher with a fat 12+ inch ka-bar?

I'm assuming you mean that I'm bare handed, not them right?

I am assuming that the fencer is training the same amount of time that the butcher has spent butchering, to make it a fair comparison. Otherwise, the fair comparison would be someone who cooks dinner for his/her family twice a week, if you're comparing it to hobbyist fencers.

Assuming equal experience and adequate training, if there's enough space for the fencer to actually use the weapon, I'd much rather fight the butcher bare-handed.

I say that because I've done enough drills with fencers where one person has a knife or empty-hand, and not once has it turned out well for that individual. And a part of my fencing training involved using a knife to 'thrust' into various objects until I could do so smoothly and with enough penetrating power - which translates better to fencing then learning to chop effectively, which is not useful in most fencing weapons/styles.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Only If the cutting resembles fighting with a knife. that's why we don't hear legends about the famous cook who rode into battle and killed everyone with his kitchen knife.

Think of it this way. People do martial arts for years and still can't fight well. But they are good with the martial arts forms.

Actually, a lot of great cooks were also great knife fighters, because once again, cutting into animal flesh is a whole different ballgame.

You've never heard of Lam "Butcher" Wing? He is the founder of a parent branch of your own style.

Butcher Wing (1979) ⭐ 6.5 | Action, Comedy

1h 29m

www.imdb.com

 

[Oily Dragon]

I'm assuming you mean that I'm bare handed, not them right?

I am assuming that the fencer is training the same amount of time that the butcher has spent butchering, to make it a fair comparison. Otherwise, the fair comparison would be someone who cooks dinner for his/her family twice a week, if you're comparing it to hobbyist fencers.

Assuming equal experience and adequate training, if there's enough space for the fencer to actually use the weapon, I'd much rather fight the butcher bare-handed.

I say that because I've done enough drills with fencers where one person has a knife or empty-hand, and not once has it turned out well for that individual. And a part of my fencing training involved using a knife to 'thrust' into various objects until I could do so smoothly and with enough penetrating power - which translates better to fencing then learning to chop effectively, which is not useful in most fencing weapons/styles.

Somebody made a quip earlier about butchering skills only being useful on dead animals.

Has no one here ever butchered a live one? Isn't easy. Go murder a cow with a blade and come back and let's discuss as equals.

Do you see my point? Butchering is probably the closest thing on earth to actually using a bladed weapon for real, short of Arnold Schwarzenegger movie stuff, and definitely a light year beyond the average "knife fighting" martial arts class.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Somebody made a quip earlier about butchering skills only being useful on dead animals.

Has no one here ever butchered a live one? Isn't easy. Go murder a cow with a blade and come back and let's discuss as equals.

Do you see my point? Butchering is probably the closest thing on earth to actually using a bladed weapon for real, short of Arnold Schwarzenegger movie stuff.

I do get your point. I was actually thinking it over, and wouldn't change my answer to the OP - because he's asking about fencing and that skill doesn't transfer over. And fencing (at least how I learned it, which is the only experience I can give) trained penetration power.

To your question, I wouldn't change my answer either. If I had to fight a fencer or a butcher barehanded, with both spending the same amount of time on their art, I'd go for the butcher. Not because I'd think I could beat him - most likely I'd get killed either way. But I know for a fact that I wouldn't survive that fight with a fencer, having experienced something similar with 0% success rate (if they're skilled). I haven't tried to fight any butchers barehanded, so while the success rate might be the same, I don't know that for certain yet.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I do get your point. I was actually thinking it over, and wouldn't change my answer to the OP - because he's asking about fencing and that skill doesn't transfer over. And fencing (at least how I learned it, which is the only experience I can give) trained penetration power.

To your question, I wouldn't change my answer either. If I had to fight a fencer or a butcher barehanded, with both spending the same amount of time on their art, I'd go for the butcher. Not because I'd think I could beat him - most likely I'd get killed either way. But I know for a fact that I wouldn't survive that fight with a fencer, having experienced something similar with 0% success rate (if they're skilled). I haven't tried to fight any butchers barehanded, so while the success rate might be the same, I don't know that for certain yet.

I want to highlight again, in less words, my point.

I'm not recommending cutting, because OP is asking how it would help with fencing, not fighting. With fighting, it likely would, though they'd likely be better off spending more time training.

I'd go against the butcher, despite believing they could cut me up just as easily as a fencer. Purely because I don't have personal proof of that yet, and either way I'm in a no-win scenario.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I want to highlight again, in less words, my point.

I'm not recommending cutting, because OP is asking how it would help with fencing, not fighting. With fighting, it likely would, though they'd likely be better off spending more time training.

I'd go against the butcher, despite believing they could cut me up just as easily as a fencer. Purely because I don't have personal proof of that yet, and either way I'm in a no-win scenario.

Maybe the OP title is the issue. It's confused, and it confused me as well.

There are two asks in there: 1 - blade fighting fundamental, and then 2 -honing general pre-existing fencing skills (in particular knives).

Knives? In fencing? For me, mind went straight to the Moon Flowing Single Saber,

which is an early Dao form that translates to a lot of other short bladed weapons, even double blades like the butterfly knives, which are essentially meat cleavers.

I guess it ultimately depends on how you define "food" below. Living or dead, it might even try to run away or murder you instead.

"How much does cutting food help with learning blade fighting fundamental and honing general pre-existing fencing skills (in particular knives)?"​

 

[Hot Lunch]

I think that a chef's knife skills would only be useful in combat if his opponent were unconscious on the table in front of him.

William Poole (aka Bill the Butcher) would beg to differ. His knife fighting skills were directly attributed to his trade as a butcher.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It will help as much as your pool cue/spear fighting idea; not at all.
If you want to learn to fight with a weapon, maybe, I don't know... learn to fight with the weapon?

 

[mograph]

William Poole (aka Bill the Butcher) would beg to differ. His knife fighting skills were directly attributed to his trade as a butcher.

Is he a butcher or a chef?

 

[Hot Lunch]

Is he a butcher or a chef?

If it makes a difference to you, does that mean you're in agreement that being a butcher translates?

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually, a lot of great cooks were also great knife fighters, because once again, cutting into animal flesh is a whole different ballgame.

You've never heard of Lam "Butcher" Wing? He is the founder of a parent branch of your own style.

Butcher Wing (1979) ⭐ 6.5 | Action, Comedy

1h 29m

www.imdb.com

Actually, a lot of great cooks were also great knife fighters, because once again, cutting into animal flesh is a whole different ballgame.

You've never heard of Lam "Butcher" Wing? He is the founder of a parent branch of your own style.

Butcher Wing (1979) ⭐ 6.5 | Action, Comedy

1h 29m

www.imdb.com

Everything, of course, in context.

Lam Sai-Wing was an excellent kung fu guy. He was also a butcher. Was his excellent kung fu skills because he trained in kung fu, or because he was a butcher? Likely the former, although with that training, the latter may have been a bonus.

Which brings up another point: do we know if he was a skillled blade guy? Did he kill anyone with a knife? Do we know for certain? His kung fu skills may not have included blade fighting, regardless of the forms and blade material included in his system.

Butchering skills could help with one’s comfort with a knife, and couple that with quality blade training, could add up. But the former without the latter is unlikely to make one a skilled knife fighter or swordsman.