Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics

[Apollo]

I've seen a few references recently to these. My own training touches on them, but doesn't really get into the "meat" as it were. What are your thoughts on them and how do you use them?

 

[Edmund BlackAdder]

I've seen a few references recently to these. My own training touches on them, but doesn't really get into the "meat" as it were. What are your thoughts on them and how do you use them?

I just posted this in the flashlight thread. It applies here:

The ever elegant Don Rearic wrote a rather interesting article on such things. http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick.html

It details the use, and effectiveness of a "pocket stick" as well as contains several diagrams and photos.

He also wrote a bit on the Yawara.
http://www.donrearic.com/yawara.html

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Couple of videos from CebuWest

Sal & Bill Lockflow with Pocket Stick (5.23 MB MPG)

Sal Disarms Bill While Using Pocket Stick (3.11 MP MPG)

I got a pair from Sal. Very Nice.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i've seen 'em and trained with them a little bit. not so very different from kubatons.

personally i don't much see the point. they don't hit enough harder than i do without a weapon to be worth the space they take up.

on the other hand, training with something like that will pretty much guarantee you can improvise a weapon just about anywhere, anytime.

 

[BlackSheep]

personally i don't much see the point. they don't hit enough harder than i do without a weapon to be worth the space they take up.

It’s a good weapon for people with poor fighting skills.

I find it more of a hindrance than a help, it flops around when I use an open hand strike and is defiantly in the way when I grip or hold.

 

[MJS]

I've seen a few references recently to these. My own training touches on them, but doesn't really get into the "meat" as it were. What are your thoughts on them and how do you use them?

Personally, I see nothing wrong with them. They're right up there with other improvised weapons, many of which we carry with us or are already around us, on a daily basis.

They'll certainly be a plus for controlling and limb destructions.

Like everything, some will like them and some will not.

Mike

 

[KenpoTex]

I think that small impact weapons like kubatons, koppos, etc. are very effective. They increase the pressure, therefore the damage inflicted, of a strike to a great degree. The methods utilized with purpose designed impact weapons transer readily to improvised objects such as small flashlights, markers & pens, a closed folding-knife, etc.

While I own a variety of small impact weapons, I don't carry any of them on a regular basis. My reasoning is that if I were to need a weapon, I wouldn't choose to deploy an impact weapon when I could use either my knives, or my firearm. I do carry a flashlight and a pen which could be used if I couldn't access a "real" weapon. Basically, if the situation has reached the point where I had to deploy a weapon, I would want to respond with the tool that would deliver the maximum amount of force to the target. As a general rule, I feel that knives and firearms are better deadly force "options" than are impact weapons.

With regard to application, I like methods that share a "commonality of motion" with my empty hand skills. Basically, I allow part of the tool to protrude from the bottom of my fist and strike any targets that I would normally hit with either a hammerfist or a handsword (face, neck, throat, temple, ribs, groin, etc.)

just my $0.02

 

[Phil Elmore]

A pocket stick or any rigid object that fits in the hand (and, ideally, extends past one or both sides of the fist) is a remarkably effective self-defense tool. I've seen it dismissed out of ignorance; anyone claiming that it is not an effective implement simply doesn't understand the tool or its application (which is really very simple).

Here are some more links that supplement Don's site (which I administrate):

The Martialist: Carrying Pocket Sticks

The Martialist: Pocket Stick Striking

The Martialist: Making Your Own Polymer Pocket Stick

The Martialist: Making Your Own Koppo Wrap

My Paladin Press book, Flashlight Fighting, is based on the same principles (outlined in this article).

 

[arnisador]

personally i don't much see the point. they don't hit enough harder than i do without a weapon

I think they can make a difference. They may not hit 'harder' but they are more rigid and will cause more damage to the opponent and less to the bones in your own hand. But, I wouldn't carry one just for that.

on the other hand, training with something like that will pretty much guarantee you can improvise a weapon just about anywhere, anytime.

Also, if you carry a folder but lack the time to open it in a particular confrontation then you may find yourself holding, in effect, a pocket stick.

 

[RoninPimp]

A pocket stick or any rigid object that fits in the hand (and, ideally, extends past one or both sides of the fist) is a remarkably effective self-defense tool. I've seen it dismissed out of ignorance; anyone claiming that it is not an effective implement simply doesn't understand the tool or its application (which is really very simple).

Here are some more links that supplement Don's site (which I administrate):

The Martialist: Carrying Pocket Sticks

The Martialist: Pocket Stick Striking

The Martialist: Making Your Own Polymer Pocket Stick

The Martialist: Making Your Own Koppo Wrap

My Paladin Press book, Flashlight Fighting, is based on the same principles (outlined in this article).

-What do you base your "remarkably effective" claim on?

 

[RoninPimp]

Couple of videos from CebuWest

Sal & Bill Lockflow with Pocket Stick (5.23 MB MPG)

Sal Disarms Bill While Using Pocket Stick (3.11 MP MPG)

I got a pair from Sal. Very Nice.

-Videos like this are why I'm opposed to their civilian carry. IMO none of that looked effective to put it nicely. Demonstrating on a willing uke and making him grimace is not effective SD use.

 

[RoninPimp]

I think they can make a difference. They may not hit 'harder' but they are more rigid and will cause more damage to the opponent and less to the bones in your own hand. But, I wouldn't carry one just for that.



Also, if you carry a folder but lack the time to open it in a particular confrontation then you may find yourself holding, in effect, a pocket stick.

-I think this is a fair argument, even though I disagree. I disagree because the damaging striking only comes with hammer fist strikes. Hammer fists are less than ideal strikes imo. I also don't see how increasing local damage makes them fit into civilian SD usage.

 

[Andrew Green]

I think they can make a difference. They may not hit 'harder' but they are more rigid and will cause more damage to the opponent and less to the bones in your own hand. But, I wouldn't carry one just for that.

I think the question becomes is the trade off worth it? Yes, you may get a little more "omph" to your strikes, but at the expense of being able to use that hand for anything other then striking. Grappling with a short stick is a hinderance, yes diggin the end into certain places can be fun, but there is a definate trade off as you loose much usefulness of your hands.

On the other hand someone that doesn't have any skill, basically just a panic and adrenhaline reaction. White knuckle and swing with everything sort of deal, they would be very useful compared to not having one.

All depends on how you fight whether one is useful or not...

 

[RoninPimp]

I think the question becomes is the trade off worth it? Yes, you may get a little more "omph" to your strikes, but at the expense of being able to use that hand for anything other then striking. Grappling with a short stick is a hinderance, yes diggin the end into certain places can be fun, but there is a definate trade off as you loose much usefulness of your hands.

On the other hand someone that doesn't have any skill, basically just a panic and adrenhaline reaction. White knuckle and swing with everything sort of deal, they would be very useful compared to not having one.

All depends on how you fight whether one is useful or not...

-I basically agree with your first paragraph. I would imagine those that are pro pocket stick would say to just "koppoize" the stick so you don't have to worry about holding it. The problem with that is you'd have to always have it on your hand to have it when you needed it. That seems silly and paranoid to me.

-Your second paragraph I would disagree with. A wild swinging untrained person is usually missing their target, so any slight advantage from the pocket stick wouldn't matter. Against another untrained spaz, it could in theory prove usefull. But its not likely imo, and certainly not in context for a civilian trying to defend himself from the hypothetical badguy.

 

[shesulsa]

-I think this is a fair argument, even though I disagree. I disagree because the damaging striking only comes with hammer fist strikes.

You can do plenty damage with forward thrusting strikes as well if you're traditionally trained, of course.

 

[RoninPimp]

You can do plenty damage with forward thrusting strikes as well if you're traditionally trained, of course.

-That's a low power strike compaired to a hook, cross, or uppercut.

 

[shesulsa]

-That's a low power strike compaired to a hook, cross, or uppercut.

With a stick, folder or empty hand?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

-That's a low power strike compaired to a hook, cross, or uppercut.

Concentration of force when done properly can make even low-power strikes hurt. Take a low power shot to the throat, you'll at least pause. Take a low power nut shot, it still hurts, again, maybe not enough to end things, but enough to force a pause.

 

[RoninPimp]

With a stick, folder or empty hand?

-With anything other than a cutting blade of some sort.

 

[RoninPimp]

Concentration of force when done properly can make even low-power strikes hurt. Take a low power shot to the throat, you'll at least pause. Take a low power nut shot, it still hurts, again, maybe not enough to end things, but enough to force a pause.

-I agree to an extent. But "hurt" just isn't enough imo.