Martial Arts for Law Enforcement...

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Hapki-Concepts, Jun 27, 2020.

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  1. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    I would love to start a conversation about M.A. for LEO's. I'm a martial artist and LEO. I teach Control Tactics and feel more officers NEED to train! This is a free resource for LEO's or anyone interested in Control Tactics / Combatives / martial arts for COPS. What style/ system do you train?

    ACD-Combatives, Control Tactics, & Self Defense.

    Thanks and stay safe...
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I think part of the problem is LEO are a little too good at killing people. Maybe cops would benefit more from some soft skills training.
     
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  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    It is hard to get the balance right between being able to clamp a guy with a degree of safety and not going overboard.

    And it is hard to get right.

    A lot of killings seem to be a lot of little errors that lead to big errors.

    So say you go to a job on your own. Because that is more cost efficient. That is a small error.

    So you get out and you put yourself somewhere a bit unsafe. Small error.

    You mess up your instructions, or don't communicate as well as you could. Small error.

    Then you get in to a fight that you didn't think would happen. Small error.

    You then do something dumb in that fight. Small error.

    Then you have to dig your way out in a blind panic. Person dies.

    Now If some of those errors get fixed the likelihood of a guy getting killed reduces.

    So there was this cop in Australia who got saved by some tradies. So he misjudged the guy but was dug out of his situation by a couple of other guys.

    Sorry I am trying to explain this in a way that is not so disjointed and kind of failing here.
     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  5. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    That was a very, very terrible thing to say.
     
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  6. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Tell me about it! Poor cops are just being horribly victimized.
     
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  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Do you have experience in law enforcement?
     
  8. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    Well. Mission accomplished. Here is how I feel. And yes i'm a COP (23 years). COPS do need more Control Tactics time. Most COPS only get 4-8 hours a year. This is why I started my channel. to encourage training. feel free to follow the link.
     
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  9. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    .
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  10. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Hapki-Concepts, welcome to Martial Talk.

    Comments in this thread sadden me.

    But at least it's put me in the right mood for the scattering of ashes into the sea, where I'm heading right now.

    I'll try not to shoot anybody on my way down.
     
  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    By the way I had a look at your vids. And they are surprisingly not garbage.

    I wouldn't lateral drop a guy.



    Not after the last time I did it and thought I killed him at least.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I think a lot of times we don't factor the surface into the equation. The mats make us think we can get the same results when done off the mat. In reality hard surfaces like packed ground, concrete, and floor surfaces are brutal. I'm not an officer, but if I had to do a take down, I would probably target the legs and do a take down that way. There are just more options available, people in general don't have good balance for countering any of the leg trip techniques. But none of this stuff will be useful unless the officer trains it at least 3 times a week every week for the time that an officer is an active officer. It has to be on going training type thing.

    For example, There are a variety of leg trips that could have been used on this guy. Before considering the one he used. If the goal is to take the guy to a ground, then there are other ways to quickly and effectively do that, provided that those techniques were trained weekly. This is especially true in this case because there was no resistance. Define the goal, are you trying to just take them down, or are you trying to inflict additional damage on with the takedown. In short certain takedowns for certain scenarios. Personally I would have sued for more than 700K, but when you look at the cost. 700K would have been well spent on a weekly training program for the year, Considering it's going to take more than 700K just go through the legal battle.
     
  13. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    thanks...

    If I was king for a day, every cop would train weekly. I always seem to just end-up / go to the regular rear hip-bump from arm-drag. It's the basic take-down at the beginning of this video.

     
  14. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    Your video is a classic example of a "Terry stop" (Terry v. Ohio 1968). That is and investigatory contact. The LEO did seem to use more force than necessary. The lateral drop would be something I would use/reserve if I was fighting with some attempting to disarm me. In-fact that is when I have used it. See Case law Graham V. Conner. This is how we are judged.

    Graham v. Connor (1989) - Law enforcement officers have a Constitutional right to use force. In the U.S. Supreme court decision Graham v. Connor (1989), the court stated “our Fourth Amendment jurisprudence has long recognized that the right to make an arrest or investigatory stop necessarily carries with it the right to use some degree of physical coercion or threat thereof to effect it”.

    The Court also stated that the use of force by an officer upon a “seized, free citizen” will be based on the standards of “objectively reasonable” under the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.

    The court stated that “based on a totality of circumstances the reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of the reasonable officer on the scene, rather than the 20/20 vision of hindsight and the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowances for the facts that police officers are often forced to make split second decisions in circumstances which are tense, uncertain, and rapidly evolving.”

    This is what I teach LEO's/ what I would use in that situation.

     
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  15. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    Please let me add, I enjoy the conversation with other martial artist. Most Cops don't train :-(
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    In reality this is what is needed. It's something that law enforcement decision makers have to understand and accept as a reality and then structure the system so that the week training fits in there. Maybe today's environment is an opportunity to push a change like that. I guarantee politicians aren't thinking about it. Pass it along to them so they implement training requirements and system changes.

    If we look at anything that anyone is good at, we will find that they train weekly. People who are good at tennis train weekly, people who are good at playing music practice weekly and so on. Pick any activity and we'll find that weekly practice is what makes people better at something. Imagine if soldiers only trained 8 hours a year. No martial artist practitioner would ever say that only 8 hours a year is enough to be good at something. If I were you, I would definitely be hitting up some politicians so that they can understand the reality of what it takes to be good with techniques used in policing. "Weekly Training" and "on going training." Sell it to them as a mutli-beneficial change. You get better trained officers for less money, because there will be fewer law suits in regards to officers using excessive for. It proves multiple options for officers so that they don't just rely on the one "destroy all" move. It promotes community support by providing better trained officers. It promote officer safety because now officers will actually be good at the takedowns meaning they are more efficient and effective when trying to take people down. No more 5 officer pile on just to restrain one person. It promotes and improves government leadership, because decisions are made at the top and all politicians want a big win. Then I would wrap it up with. We are were we are today because of the lack of quality training in the right areas. It makes no sense to continue to do the things that have brought us to this point. It is too costly on multiple levels.

    Man I would sell that thing big time. I would even offer a 6 month and a 1 year pilot for a limited number of officers.
     
  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I forgot to mention to sell the stress release issue that training provides. Training actually releases built up stress and makes a healthier police officer mentally, emotionally, and physically. That way police officers have a way to not take so much work stress home.
     
  18. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    I don't disagree with anything you say. The issue is budget & manning. Most dept. don't have the budget & time. You could break it into two groups. A training group actively training when the other group is working.this is how the military trains. The issue, not enough cops. No-one wants to be a cop or no money in the budget to hire. Training = money/budget.

    If I stepped outside my chain of command and talked with politicians, my career would be over. I only have 4 years to go before retirement. Anyway, most politicians don't care. they are the ones that approve the budget and are always cutting it, never adding to it. This has been covered in studies and studies are great academically but never go anywhere. It is the taxpayer that needs to push, Taxpayers = votes...
     
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  19. Brian King

    Brian King Master of Arts

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    Many politicians and citizens theorize that it cheaper to pay for the occasional law suit than to pay for additional training and the occasional law suit. People who actually value the lives of their law enforcement officers and the citizens they serve place a higher dollar value on lives, while politicians just look at numbers and sound bytes.

    Welcome to the forum Hapki-Concepts

    Regards
    Brian King
     
  20. Hapki-Concepts

    Hapki-Concepts White Belt

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    thanks...
    you are right. it is often cheaper to pay out of court than fight the case in court. Most agencies, counties, city's, etc. have a magic number that they are willing to pay to keep the case out of court.123
     
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