Why should law enforcement officers train BJJ?

[jks9199]

Any Thoughts about Aikido?

There are two big problems with aikido for law enforcement:
1. Many if not most aikido programs in the US (at least) are not functional in mindset; they're often "hippy dippy"...
2. To be effective, it takes too much time and training and consistent practice.

 

[punisher73]

Because people go backwards for wrist locks. If a person is actually fighting you. You don't grab the wrist.

Secure the head and get the underhook, create an angle, break their posture, straighten out their arm and take the wrist from there.

All the time you make sure your head is angled so you can use it to wrestle and reduce their ability to hit it.

Otherwise wrist lock positions are essentially arm drags. And arm drags let you take someones back. So if they power out of the wrist lock you take their back and can hang out there pretty safely. If they turn back in double leg them in to the deck and fight on with a bit of gravity. Knee ride, arm bar, wrist lock stand them back up if you want.

In most use of force continuum policies I have seen, a wrist lock is performed for lower levels of force where the subject is not actively trying to hurt the officer, and is used to regain control so the situation does not escalate further. I have used the transport wrist lock (goose neck) several times in this manner. One of the things I have seen many officers do is NOT being able to transition to your idea of an arm drag or other tactic to control their structure or posture if the force escalates quickly and they are still stuck on the idea of a wrist lock without any setup and wonder why the technique "doesn't work".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was referring more towards a Cop's perspective in putting on a wrist lock. I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them.....as they're sneaking in that wrist lock slowly in order to slap the cuffs on. I don't think I ever saw them just shoot for the wrist when the Perp is using a lot of force to resist. They'd grapple, control in dominant position, then wrist lock...so basically we agree.

While standing wrist locks, often taught by SD schools, are usually BS. They usually require that the other guy give them his wrist or grab the SD Instructor's wrist = a mistake, which is usually what's required to pull of a WL.

That's the starting position for learning the mechanics of the lock. Unfortunately, I've seen too few schools that progress beyond that point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In most use of force continuum policies I have seen, a wrist lock is performed for lower levels of force where the subject is not actively trying to hurt the officer, and is used to regain control so the situation does not escalate further. I have used the transport wrist lock (goose neck) several times in this manner. One of the things I have seen many officers do is NOT being able to transition to your idea of an arm drag or other tactic to control their structure or posture if the force escalates quickly and they are still stuck on the idea of a wrist lock without any setup and wonder why the technique "doesn't work".

And, of course, that's not unique to cops. I have to work hard to break students of that mentality. In even semi-realistic drills, I fail more techniques than I succeed at, and that's my expectation. I just learn to recognize the failure early and move on to something that's more available. Where students (and cops) get in trouble is when they feel like moving to the next technique is "quitting" on the one you started.

 

[drop bear]

In most use of force continuum policies I have seen, a wrist lock is performed for lower levels of force where the subject is not actively trying to hurt the officer, and is used to regain control so the situation does not escalate further. I have used the transport wrist lock (goose neck) several times in this manner. One of the things I have seen many officers do is NOT being able to transition to your idea of an arm drag or other tactic to control their structure or posture if the force escalates quickly and they are still stuck on the idea of a wrist lock without any setup and wonder why the technique "doesn't work".

Cos they are not trained effectively.

People think the technical wrist lock is the most important part of performing a wrist lock. Which is a common mistake.

 

[drop bear]

And, of course, that's not unique to cops. I have to work hard to break students of that mentality. In even semi-realistic drills, I fail more techniques than I succeed at, and that's my expectation. I just learn to recognize the failure early and move on to something that's more available. Where students (and cops) get in trouble is when they feel like moving to the next technique is "quitting" on the one you started.

The kit dale concept of timing vs technique, static drills vs realistic timing drills.

People train these concepts wrong and so train these flaws in.

 

[drop bear]

I was referring more towards a Cop's perspective in putting on a wrist lock. I have at least 200 episodes of Cops on my computer, and they would usually hold the Perp's wrist while telling them everything's going to be ok.....and casually walking behind them.....as they're sneaking in that wrist lock slowly in order to slap the cuffs on. I don't think I ever saw them just shoot for the wrist when the Perp is using a lot of force to resist. They'd grapple, control in dominant position, then wrist lock...so basically we agree.

While standing wrist locks, often taught by SD schools, are usually BS. They usually require that the other guy give them his wrist or grab the SD Instructor's wrist = a mistake, which is usually what's required to pull of a WL.

It is mostly trained wrong by the wrong people. The people who do wrist locks don't generally have the fundamental skills needed. The people with the fundamental skills don't do wrist locks.

I have mentioned this before with eye gouges. You will be a better eye gouge specialist if you learn to box.

There is a whole series of concepts that work with the escort position. Done by guys who can actually perform it on resisting oponants.

Of course they never hit standing wrist locks so it is a dimension they dont chase.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The kit dale concept of timing vs technique, static drills vs realistic timing drills.

People train these concepts wrong and so train these flaws in.

There’s some good food for thought in that, man.

 

[CB Jones]

Wristlocks are more for escorting compliant people.

In my experience, with resistant or assaultive people going straight for the shoulder and taking them down or knocking them off balance and then driving them into a wall is much better.

Kinda like this.

This way I have some control of an arm to work toward handcuffing.

 

[FriedRice]

It is mostly trained wrong by the wrong people. The people who do wrist locks don't generally have the fundamental skills needed. The people with the fundamental skills don't do wrist locks.

I have mentioned this before with eye gouges. You will be a better eye gouge specialist if you learn to box.

There is a whole series of concepts that work with the escort position. Done by guys who can actually perform it on resisting oponants.

Of course they never hit standing wrist locks so it is a dimension they dont chase.

Yea if you're in a fight/grapple, then this is better...but from a Cop's POV, he's usually trying to keep things chilled while trying to sneak the cuffs on the Perp....which seems to be the main go-to move that they do on the TV show, Cops. The Cops would keep talking nicely to the Perp while holding their wrist, and sneakily trying to gradually get behind them while increasing pressure on the wrist to turn it into a lock. The Cop's not going to go right into a full arm drag right away unless he feel significant resistance.

 

[punisher73]

Cos they are not trained effectively.

People think the technical wrist lock is the most important part of performing a wrist lock. Which is a common mistake.

As to their training, its a different type of officer now on the street. When I started this job over 20 years ago, you could ask a group of new officers in the academy "who has ever been in a fight?" and it was almost 100% of their hands raised. Now, when we ask that question, sometimes there are NO hands going up in the air. They have no reference point of violence or fighting outside of what they see on TV in many cases. Now couple that with VERY limited training time and there is still no reference point, no matter what an instructor says about tactics and techniques. But, I do agree with you that for the most part, cops do not get the adequate training that they need to do the job safely and effectively. Teach an officer how to fight/restrain/subdue a person properly and excessive force claims are going to go WAY down.

As my instructor has talked about many times. When you start your training, your fear/threat bar is very high. Its new and unknown, so there is that high level of fear about what to do, am I going to get hurt etc. The more training and experience I have, the lower that goes as I get used to those unknowns because I have dealt with them before. I don't revert to worst case scenario ideas every time. Anyways, I digress....

 

[Deleted member 39746]

what about verbal BJJ? That would be very effective. (sorry i couldn't resist)

 

[drop bear]

As to their training, its a different type of officer now on the street. When I started this job over 20 years ago, you could ask a group of new officers in the academy "who has ever been in a fight?" and it was almost 100% of their hands raised. Now, when we ask that question, sometimes there are NO hands going up in the air. They have no reference point of violence or fighting outside of what they see on TV in many cases. Now couple that with VERY limited training time and there is still no reference point, no matter what an instructor says about tactics and techniques. But, I do agree with you that for the most part, cops do not get the adequate training that they need to do the job safely and effectively. Teach an officer how to fight/restrain/subdue a person properly and excessive force claims are going to go WAY down.

As my instructor has talked about many times. When you start your training, your fear/threat bar is very high. Its new and unknown, so there is that high level of fear about what to do, am I going to get hurt etc. The more training and experience I have, the lower that goes as I get used to those unknowns because I have dealt with them before. I don't revert to worst case scenario ideas every time. Anyways, I digress....

My bench mark was MMA. If I threw someone in to a ring fight with the same training cops get. I probably should get sued for negligence.

There is some sort of disconnect there.

 

[drop bear]

Yea if you're in a fight/grapple, then this is better...but from a Cop's POV, he's usually trying to keep things chilled while trying to sneak the cuffs on the Perp....which seems to be the main go-to move that they do on the TV show, Cops. The Cops would keep talking nicely to the Perp while holding their wrist, and sneakily trying to gradually get behind them while increasing pressure on the wrist to turn it into a lock. The Cop's not going to go right into a full arm drag right away unless he feel significant resistance.

Arm drags are pretty benign done slowly. Two on one can be used to stabilize an old or drunk person.

Yes there is more than one speed.

Handcuffing is the same as arm bars conceptually. You still have to get that arm away from the body.

 

[drop bear]

Wristlocks are more for escorting compliant people.

In my experience, with resistant or assaultive people going straight for the shoulder and taking them down or knocking them off balance and then driving them into a wall is much better.

Kinda like this.

This way I have some control of an arm to work toward handcuffing.

Yeah. The reenforced underhook or beef Wellington. This is also a go to for me with restraints.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Arm drags are pretty benign done slowly. Two on one can be used to stabilize an old or drunk person.

Yes there is more than one speed.

Handcuffing is the same as arm bars conceptually. You still have to get that arm away from the body.

And behind the plane, if you don't want to fight their strength.

I teach the entrance to a standing (doesn't have to end that way) arm bar as a variation on an arm drag. That way, if the arm starts to bend, you've still got a really handy arm drag to use while you're getting to something else.

 

[CB Jones]

Yea if you're in a fight/grapple, then this is better...but from a Cop's POV, he's usually trying to keep things chilled while trying to sneak the cuffs on the Perp....which seems to be the main go-to move that they do on the TV show, Cops. The Cops would keep talking nicely to the Perp while holding their wrist, and sneakily trying to gradually get behind them while increasing pressure on the wrist to turn it into a lock. The Cop's not going to go right into a full arm drag right away unless he feel significant resistance.

The old days of trying to sneak cuffs on are over. That way their is no confusion and you have a stronger case for resisting.

Most train some type of Ask, Tell, Force....

Ask---- Sir, you are under arrest, please turn around and put your hands behind your back. (no response)

Tell ---- Sir, Turn around and put your hands behind your back. (no response)

Force---- Grab wrist and upper arm and physically turn them and while pulling arm behind their back for handcuffing. (Resist)

Takedown into prone position for handcuffing.

 

[FriedRice]

Arm drags are pretty benign done slowly. Two on one can be used to stabilize an old or drunk person.

Yes there is more than one speed.

Handcuffing is the same as arm bars conceptually. You still have to get that arm away from the body.

I guess a standing kimura would be pretty easy, but it doesn't seem like the average Cop aren't even good at this. Which goes back to the main question and that the answer would be yes, Cops should train BJJ as it would get them used to all this due to the heavy sparring.

Wrestling would probably be better than BJJ, but I'm not sure that the average Cop would be handle a Wrestling program....they're going to get wrecked, worse than beginners BJJ.

 

[drop bear]

I guess a standing kimura would be pretty easy, but it doesn't seem like the average Cop aren't even good at this. Which goes back to the main question and that the answer would be yes, Cops should train BJJ as it would get them used to all this due to the heavy sparring.

Wrestling would probably be better than BJJ, but I'm not sure that the average Cop would be handle a Wrestling program....they're going to get wrecked, worse than beginners BJJ.

catch wrestling.

 

[CB Jones]

I guess a standing kimura would be pretty easy, but it doesn't seem like the average Cop aren't even good at this. Which goes back to the main question and that the answer would be yes, Cops should train BJJ as it would get them used to all this due to the heavy sparring.

Wrestling would probably be better than BJJ, but I'm not sure that the average Cop would be handle a Wrestling program....they're going to get wrecked, worse than beginners BJJ.

Unless I’m looking at it wrong....a Kimura is problematic when it comes to weapon retention.

Now with two or more officers....Kimuras work well for getting the persons hands behind their back for handcuffing.