Defensive Tactics...

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by jks9199, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    There was a brief renewed interest in hand-to-hand tactics in my dept when 3 of our officers attempted to arrest a career wine-o, and he messed up all 3 of them..It didnt last long as the Tazer was soon introduced and it became the answer for those that had no interest or desire to train...Perhaps the saddest thing I heard from one of these guys was "They shoulda dome that stuff when we were younger..I got got 4 years to I retire so I don't plan of getting into anything serious"..
     
  2. Hudson69

    Hudson69 Brown Belt

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    In Colorado the rear naked choke, or whatever you want to call it is considered the use of Deadly Force and is not allowed at my agency. However along those same lines when I went throught the FBI AC course I was taught that choke as well as a couple of ways to put it into action; during the course it was still mentioned that it was not allowed as well.
     
  3. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    A rear naked choke does not qualify as lethal force.....it may in your policy manual, but that's the fault of your administrator........and if it does as a result of your state legislature, then they are morons!

    The Kansas City police department has been using the Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint for over 30 years as a control technique.

    Not to mention that tens of thousands of Judoka and Jui-Jitsu practioners in the US have been choking each other out for years without death or serious physical injury.

    The bottom line is that, if an administrator doesn't allow their officers to learn neck restraints out of some misplaced sense of liability, he's doing his officers a disservice. Likewise if he does, and puts it at the same level as lethal force.

    A properly applied neck restraint is not any more dangerous than any other low-end use of force.
     
  4. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    They show us the LVNR in the Instructors and looked for volunteers to experience it..I did..
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  5. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    I was talking to my (ex-CSPD) BJJ instructor about this issue last weekend. Actually the lesson for the day involved chokes. What we (the students) realized was that there are two ways of applying the (rear naked) choke. One is the carotid choke that cuts off blood to the brain. The other is the tracheal choke that crushes the trachea. It depends on how you apply the force and is also somewhat contingent on the size/length of the arms versus the size of the others neck.

    The reason that the choke is no longer allowed in Colorado is that little term of 'properly applied'. In the heat of the moment it's easy to slip the proper technique and apparently too many tracheas were being crushed
     
  6. Bikewr

    Bikewr Orange Belt

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    As the judoka will attest, the Japanese have always differentiated between the "strangle" applied against the vessels in the neck and the "choke" applied against the trachea.
    I understand that the strangle was so well-developed that it could be used to keep an individual semi-conscious while surgery was being performed.

    Still taught as part of PPCT, so far as I know.
     
  7. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    One of the strangles is taught in PPCT......they call it the 'Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint' because it only closes one artery.

    It's far less effective that the rear-naked strangle, which is taught as the LVNR, or 'Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint'.
     
  8. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    And yet, some guy or gal who has never been in a fight in their life, never taken a martial art, can attend a 30 or 40 hour training and be considered 'An expert'......yeah, I know the routine.
     
  9. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes that is the routine. [​IMG]
     
  10. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    That's a training issue. It's little different than banning batons because an officer might hit someone in the head when aiming for the leg.

    The reality is that many 'Rule making' bodies are operating on what they 'heard' from a guy who works at a department who knows a guy who works at another department, who said that this was happening. If you go to try and track down all these 'crushed tracheas' you'll find a lot of blank looks, and stares.....'well, uhm.....I heard from so and so.......but he's retired now, and might even be dead, so, uhm.....'
     
  11. kyosa

    kyosa Orange Belt

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    actually it is called the shoulder pin restraint they aren't allowed to call it anything close to vascular or neck restraint because of the copy rite
     
  12. kyosa

    kyosa Orange Belt

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    I just came back from PPCT instructor training and wanted to say thanks to all the guys back in the day who worked hard and discovered and implemented many of the techniques that we take for granted now.

    According to my PPCT instructor back in the 70's and early 80's a lot of officers were disarmed and even had their own guns turned on them. In Kansas city over an 18 month period 9 officers lost their guns in confrontations and one officer lost his life when his gun was turned on him. Officers didn't know what to do when confronted with situations where someone was trying to take their firearm away from them. These were techniques not taught in the regular Martial Arts and were developed by LEO for LEO's due to special needs. So I just wanted to say thanks to those guys who have helped shape, develope, implement and teach many of the techniques that many of us take for granted,
     
  13. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    They must have gotten sued since my last PPCT class about ten years ago....Bruce Siddle used to call it the Unilateral Vascular Neck Restraint.

    At any rate, I always considered the shoulder pin a compromise technique that is a poor substitute for the rear naked strangle. The shoulder pin can be effective, but in my experience if given the option between applying either one, the rear naked strangle is superior in every way.
     
  14. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    The 1970's were a truly rough time to be a cop......if you look at officer's killed in the of duty, you'll see that the worst years in US history were in the 1970's, with the peak being in 1974, with more officers killed in the line of duty than in any other period before or since.

    The upside for you and me is, that a lot of learning resulted from the crises' and turmoil of the 1970's. Much of what we know today is directly linked to the guys who grew up in that period, and fought those battles, and decided to pass the lessons on to the young cops in the 1980's and beyond, so that they might live and do it even better.
     
  15. kyosa

    kyosa Orange Belt

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    That is exactly what happened. And I agree the Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR) is far superior to the shoulder pin as a choke.
     
  16. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    When I reported for duty the other day the Police Explorers were having their meeting, the laison officer showed me their wish list, and at the top of it was " Self Defense" training..

    I was asked if I could show them a few things...I showed them a few techniques that could be easily remembered and practiced among themselves and my recommendation for them to train somewhere..

    When asked what do I suggest all I said was " just train" I dont care if its TKD, JKD, etc..etc.. and to NEVER lose the interest in studying...A 4 hr block of training is being set up..If only the adults were as interested...
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2009
  17. Hudson69

    Hudson69 Brown Belt

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    I will have to agree on the amount of time not being enough, but it never is, spent in most of the combat skills of a police officer but my agency meets POST standards here in Colorado and at the same time has developed their own system, taking what they like and do not like, but still meeting the state's requirements in whatever areas there are.

    Our DT is speciffic to DT, handcuffing and person searching other skills are learned in different areas. But I would like to comment that it, based off of my knowledge of traditional martial arts and combative skills learned in the military, is fairly comprehensive.

    We have rolls, falls, weapon retention, movement skills (lunge, shuffle, pivot), blocks, parries, ground fighting (very basic, geared toward escaping and getting back to your feet), a wide variety of striking, kicking, locks and nerve strikes.

    I would have to say that the system itself is weak in the areas of ground fighting, lack of the use of lots of sparring (liability is what it is to a gold badge), use of different combos and dealing with multiple attackers at the same time.

    We do do in service training once a year and it is a refresher with any up-dates added along the way. One thing I think we could really use, and other departments might as well, is having a weekly or monthly even training night where officers can get together at the training academy and practice (more often would be better).
     
  18. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    Having some "gold badge" insights into DT training...there are many issues involved in department administered DT programs. Increased injuries are part of the game here, they are bound to happen and their impact on manpower, overtime, lawsuits and workmans compensation can be significant hurdles. Not to mention the slackers that may see an opportunity to visit "Dr. Summeroff".

    Another issue is time available, if you are realistically going to train officers in DT's it has to be more than 1-2 training days a year. Organizing and running a program that provides weekly training runs into signifigant overtime and manpower constraints, not to mention how much that would amplify the injury problem previously mentioned. In this day and age of LE being accused of being "overpaid", convincing the public and politicians that our budget needs a hefty injection of cash to run a DT program is a hard sell.

    A local dojo offered FREE floor time for local officers to train (on their own time) and only 2-5 showed. Time available, shift-work, off-duty work and obligations, plain old interest, and the "if Im not getting paid for it..." attitude all factor in.

    Not that I think DT's at departmental level ISNT a great idea or that Im against it. But there are valid issues at play.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2009
  19. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    That's true...

    We had more than enough manpower to do it once a month, there was no interest..My buddy owns a Kajukenbo school and had offered me the use of his dojo, no one was interested...I am on the clock anyway so it does not cost them anything extra

    No surprize to me..Yeah , it it wont prevent them from bowling, darts or softball....


    I am still waitin for someone to get hurt and sue, I will be called to the witness stand and then they all go down in flames...
     
  20. Hudson69

    Hudson69 Brown Belt

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    I understand that the department has to do what it has to do, not meant to be depricating to the gold shields out there. I just wish that the budget was better, that we could train more often and that the officers took their job to heart a little more and realized that we are the first line of defense without becoming obsessive.... in a perfect world...
     

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