Defensive Tactics...

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by jks9199, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. kyosa

    kyosa Orange Belt

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    I agree that joint locks work well with persons who feel pain, but are limited in there effectiveness with anyone who is pain resistant unless you are looking at breaking bones and/or dislocating joints-things gotta be bad if you are using this type of force!

    As for gun disarms I feel they do deserve some attention. There is a funny story that I wanted to share that does have meaning for all LEO's and martial artists. I haven't seen the video but several of my co-workers have. A Border Patrol officer found himself on the wrong end of a pistol. He did everything correctly in his disarm-pushed the gun off line and moved his body parts out of the way in case the gun went off, disarmed the gun, struck the guy with the gun for a brachial stun.....then handed the guy the gun back just like he had trained to do over and over again! He had to disarm the guy a second time.

    The FBI did a study of officers shot in the line of duty in the 1970's (most officers used revolvers back then). Handgun instructors would yell at everyone that they weren't their mothers and the officers were expected to put their brass in pocket. Guess what happened during the real shoot outs? You guessed it-the officers took the time to put their brass in their pockets in the middle of the shoot out.

    Moral of the story-the way you train is the way you will usually do it when the poop hits the fan. You want to make your training as realistic as possible from start to finish when practicing.

    Another thing that I haven't seen addressed here is stress innoculation. In the old days before Tasers and Pepper spray we were stress innoculated early and often in the course of our work, but that first couple of times were real doozies. If we can get this type of training in the new officers before they hit the streets, and even the old timers, it is hugely beneficial.
     
  2. KenpoTex

    KenpoTex Senior Master

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    I know of at least two similar incidents, one in Canada and one in Finland where the officers did the same thing. The Canadian officer actually was shot when he handed the gun back but still managed to get the gun back.

    Newhall incident in the 70's...right?
     
  3. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well said...That's why we REPEAT to prospective clients that THIS instructor IS an LEO...
     
  4. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    The gun disarm story happened up here too...When the oficer went to hand the gun back the bad guy assumed it was a trap and threw his hands up...We CONSTANTLY stress for the need for EVERYONE that takes his training seriously to purchase a BlueGun and carry it in their training bag...I heard the brass story before, very sad..My department was just as bad..When we transitioned to semi-autos the didn't want the new mags to hit the floor and get all banged up..Thankfully one of our range masters got rid of that stupid act...
     
  5. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    Yeah, the Newhall incident changed everything.

    As to training for disarms, there are occasions when it can come in handy.........this video certainly supports that reality!


    Though chunking the metal ticket book HARD in to the guys face, while simultaneously making distance and clearing leather might have been the absolute SMARTEST course of action!

    'Front sight PRESS, CENTER MASS, CENTER MASS, CENTER MASS!' Repeat as needed!
     
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  6. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    I heard about that move when I was a rookie, I have never forgotten it..When other officers purchase the plastic cite holders I have kept my metal one..I heard a better story..While the officer is standing there writing the cite ( now-a-days we return to our cruisers) the driver pulls a gun and the officer throws the ticket book up in front of his face..The driver no longer having line of sight doesnt fire and it gives the officer enough time to pull his weapon and move out of range...
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2009
  7. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Here is another head shaker..Master Steve and I recently met a female from a local department that was really interested in training..We told her that we had sent invites to our lady LEO training..Her comment was that their training officer doesn't reconize ANYONE's experience save their own..If he doesn't teach it, they don't need it...
     
  8. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    Drac, that's not just a problem for law enforcement or for defensive tactics. I've seen the same thing in software engineering, medicine and blacksmithing.
     
  9. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    I will NEVER understand that kind of mentality...
     
  10. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That kind of logic is really hard to fathom. [​IMG]
     
  11. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    There is another officer I work with that is also a dedicated MA and is a serious Muay Tai fighter..When I suggested that he take over the in house training program the "stupid-visors" balked saying he wasnt state certified..So if Chuck Norris wanted to teach here you would say No because he isnt certified by the state?? I never got an answer...
     
  12. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    That mindset isnt just limited to DT's in police departments unfortunately. The firearms Duke doesnt want to share power either. Neither does the IT Prince, the public relations Count, or the records department King.
     
  13. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Not really.

    Lots of people invest lots of themselves and their self-image in having titles. This guy is a "DT instructor." He's teaching cops to survive on the the real streets, not silly martial arts stuff or competitions. He's the guy who teaches bad ases to be bad asses. If he let someone else in to teach something, they might show him up. They might show that something he's teaching is wrong. And there goes his self-image.

    (If it sounds like this could be twisted slightly to apply in lots of other martial arts or other endeavors, you're absolutely right.)

    I'm going to guess that most of us here come from a different mindset: We welcome challenges to the established way we do things, because they might be better. If not -- we've shown that "our" way is better. And we recognize that sometimes there is no best way, just several different approaches that work for different people.

    Then there's the liability boogyman in police DT training. There are lots of good, solid tactics and techniques that are prohibited because someone misused them, or the administration is simply convinced that they are too dangerous or expose them to too much liability. Look at the Taser. The modern Taser is a great tool, but lots of agencies are still not issueing them to the people who need them; they're leaving them in the hands of supervisors or senior officers who are often the last on the scene. (Please, someone, explain to me the logic behind saying you don't trust a rookie with a less-lethal item like the Taser, but you do with a gun?) Remember that police policy is set by the top brass; these guys are usually 10 to 20 (or more) years from the street -- and they've been doing different things. Small agencies ape large agency policies, so this pretty much applies across the board. (Of course, there are exceptions.)
     
  14. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    Like the rear naked choke..effective and safe if done properly but not allowed here because some BG was killed by a "choke hold" "back in the day"....however, thats not saying that its "off the table" for me if the situation required it.
     
  15. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    A retired detective buddy of mine works at that agency and had to attend that class...I was told "Drac, if you'd have been there we would have had to sedate you to keep you from beating this guys butt"..This jerk got his state certificate and never did anything to broaden his skills...
     
  16. tellner

    tellner Senior Master

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    I'm reminded of a certain Eskrimador and very highly ranked Kajukenbo black belt who was a cop in a certain California city when the PR-24 was all the rage. One of his students was also officers in the same department. He told me what happened one day when the new official instructor came in with his starched white gi
    [*]. After Instructor Y (IY) showed his stuff BB X said something like "That's pretty, but can you make it work?"

    At this point IY made a Serious Personal Error. He told the wiry little Pilipino "I see you're still carrying a baton" in what seemed to be a derisive tone.

    The student immediately started to look for large heavy objects to shelter behind.

    Somehow, with the crushing inevitability of a Greek tragedy after the chorus has warned the king not to show disrespect to Blind Tiresias BB X and IY ended up squaring off in front of everyone. As near as the man's students can reconstruct their teacher started with a witik to the right hand which was blocked (as expected). That was with an upwards cut to the groin which was barely blocked and in turn into the backhand beheading stroke which connected with its own brand of dramatic crushing inevitability.

    Or there's the case of "Colonel" Biddle who came up with his own fencing-based brand of knife fighting to teach the Marines in the early days of WWII. It worked fine against his students. But when he tried the traditional "Mine is bigger than yours" against recruits who had grown up in places like Hell's Kitchen it didn't work so well. By "didn't work so well" I mean "He regularly got whipped like he had a tail and stopped using anyone but his hand-picked students for demonstrations."

    Take-home message? Don't assume that just because you're getting paid to teach the Huddled Masses to fight you can fight better than they can.

    [*]That's one thing I've never understood. If you're doing defensive tactics why ferchrissakes would you wear a gi and have bare feet? Why not wear your uniform and duty gear or at least as close an approximation as you can allowing for safety? You're not going to be taking off your shoes and changing clothes when you have to make this stuff work.
     
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  17. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Bravo Tellner, well said...I didnt think anyone did that anymore...That was one of the first rules inpressed up me when I first thought about teaching LEO's...Leave the gi at home..
     
  18. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    That's one thing that will make me pretty much discount someone talking about law enforcement DT...

    I'm not saying that everything has to be done in duty gear... but if the training is in martial arts uniforms, it almost always ignores the reality of the gear a cop carries and wears. Body armor and gun belts do change the way you move, and the gun belt especially adds a whole set of concerns.

    Realistic DT recognizes what a cop carries, deals with weapons retention as well as transitions to different weapons, and recognizes that the typical goal of a police use of force is to effect an arrest, not simply stop an attack and escape. If the instructor isn't paying at least some lip service to these issues -- they ain't really teaching DT.
     
  19. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    I was at an Arnis Black Belt workout this weekend, and one of my teachers, who was heading the group, got on the subject of Law Enforcement. He is a Capt. with the Dept. Of Corrections, so he knows quite a few people in the LEO field. He mentioned a gentleman, who I know as well from training in Kenpo.

    Here are a few clips from some of the DT material that Lt. Kevin Dillon has put out. Looks like some interesting material.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NopoWTjZXc&feature=channel_page

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rcs4f5FaRE&feature=channel_page

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJi47WJBpHU&feature=channel_page

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3j8skwcxdo&feature=channel_page
     
  20. Bikewr

    Bikewr Orange Belt

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    I'll chip in on this, though I can only comment on the local scene. I have in law enforcement for 40+ years, so I've seen a lot of changes.

    When I went through the academy back in 1968, I was rather shocked as to the lack of such training. We had a fellow from another department come out; he was identified as a "judo black belt". He showed us some very rudimentary come-alongs, wrist locks, methods for removing a resisting individual from an auto..Stuff like that. About 2 hours total.
    We were not issued a nightstick, but were encouraged to buy one. There was no instruction.

    Most of the guys who were interested in MA sought out local private schools. At the the time, there was not much available locally. You took TKD at the single (and painfully traditional) school, or went to "Tracy's", a sort of pre-McDojo offering up a sort of synthesized Japanese karate with contracts for a black belt... That sort of place.

    I think it was just sort of assumed that if you were interested in police work, you would know how to fight. There was a fairly heavy interest in boxing, and one of the ranking detectives was a semi-pro who had sparred with some noted heavyweights at the time.

    The only other instruction I recall from that department was a short course given by some English bloke on his particular ideas of nightstick use; it was basically a single-technique system. I was not impressed.

    Personally, I had been interested in various MA since childhood, and had a fair background in Japanese karate and various stick-fighting methods.

    I left that department in 1979 or so, and took up my present position in "campus" law enforcement. For the first few years, that same status quo remained. Then the legal thinking around police "use-of-force" policies started to change, and our new chief at least expressed some interest. He sent us to an eye-opening seminar on risk management and use-of-force.
    The fellow, Randy Means (still providing such training, BTW) explained the current legal thinking and how departments could limit liability with good defensive "tools" and proper training and policy.
    http://www.policingwithhonor.com/images/SeminarForm.pdf

    As a result of this, we upgraded our weapons, going from revolvers to Glock pistols, and adding ASP batons, pepper spray, and so forth.
    I was sent to the PPCT Instructors certification class. For those not familiar, PPCT:
    http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=PPCT&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=PPCT&fp=23tj5qXL0AY
    Is a system synthesized by an ex-cop to maximize the officer's ability to control resisting suspects while minimizing liability. It's pretty decent, relying on simple techniques that can be quickly learned and applied in the field.
    This training, and new policies, made me re-think my notions about martial arts and police work. I had invested a great deal of time and effort in JKD and FMA work, becoming pretty decent with the stick as applied in the Filipino manner. I realized that in the current legal environment, using these techniques would at least result in disciplinary action (for policy violation) or at worst indicted for "excessive force".

    Of course, this only applies to more-or-less standard resisting scenarios; in an all-out fight where you think your life is in danger, anything goes. Most departmental policies specifically state that.

    We had a guy out a few years ago who was supposed to give us an ongoing series of training seminars and also train department members as instructors. We got two sessions which pretty much mirrored the PPCT training I'd had already.

    I would say that for almost my entire career, the departments I've been associated with have been only marginally interested in defensive tactics training, and the main purpose of such training as has been scheduled is to limit liability for the department....
     
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