Defensive Tactics...

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by jks9199, Feb 11, 2008.

  1. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    DT... What is it? What are cops taught? What should they be taught?

    Here on MT, most of us are pretty serious martial artists. We voluntarily spend several to many (to way too many, if you ask spouses & friends) hours practicing the intricacies of dealing with a person in hand-to-hand combat.

    Cops and LEOs in general spend a lot of time putting their training in Defensive Tactics into use, so it stands to reason that they spend a lot of time on it, both in the academy, and in-service training, right?

    WRONG! In fact, most law enforcement DT training is pretty brief, and many agencies rarely do in-service DT!

    What is DT? Well, it's not only going hands on with someone; DT generally covers all the various issues of protecting oneself from physical assault, as well as the unique areas of policing like handcuffing, searching buildings, handling a crowd... All that stuff that has to do with keeping yourself safe in the field. A pretty typical academy is 6 months or so long. In that time, the recruits will spend one or two weeks on the track, learning to drive. They'll spend another week or two at the range, learning to shoot. They'll have a week or two of odd-ball topics, like first aid/CPR or radar school. So... now we're down to 5 months. Or less. What it ends up amounting to is that a typical DT program would be about 3 to 4 weeks long, at best, if done 8 hours a day, with no other training. But it's rarely taught that way... Instead, most academies I'm familiar with alternate DT training and PT training every day, for about 2 to 3 hours, for about 8 weeks. Yeah... Not much. And when you figure that a couple of those DT days are dedicated to search or arrest training and practice... it gets even shorter. Maybe 40 to 60 hours... and that includes baton!

    So... it ends up that most cops get taught a very quick & dirty class with simple, hopefully effective and easily retained techniques. The exact curriculum varies, but generally includes falling, simple knee strikes, low kicks, a couple of check/block techniques, a couple of palm and fist strikes to various targets, a couple of throws or takedowns, and some control holds, as well as a few effective pressure points for control or motivation.

    So... within that framework... what would YOU suggest be included? Remember -- it's got to be something that can be taught to someone with no prior experience quickly, and it's got to be scalable to a use of force model. (Cops can't put everyone they deal with into a rear naked choke; that counts as lethal force.)
     
  2. MarkBarlow

    MarkBarlow Purple Belt

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    Unfortunately, you pointed out the major problem to expanding the curriculum. Time. There isn't nearly enough time given to such a serious aspect of a LEO's job. I know plenty of cops who have never drawn their gun but I don't know of any who don't have to physically restrain, if not outright fight, someone on a regular basis.

    On the bright side, by keeping the DT techniques simple, the chance that they'll be retained is greater. If more time were allotted for DT and the time was used to teach a wider array of techniques, I think we'd be defeating the purpose. Focus on a few and repeat until they become conditioned.
     
  3. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yep..Too much time spent sittingin the classroom learning how to not viloate someone's civil rights..

    The academys up here don't do PT here just DT

    OPOTA ( Ohio Peace Officers Training Academy) set the standards up here..A good but very basic program...When I taught in the acedemy there was always a student or 2 that picked up the basics real fast..I would then show them some techniques from Shorin-Ryu or Combat Hapkido

    You pose a good question JKS..The basic punches and kicks..Elbow strikes..Some joint manipulation for defense against grabs and above weapon retention...
     
  4. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Truthfully I can remember going through the academy and enjoying the Defensive Tactics and PPCT. We also did some boxing which was right up my alley. Still overall the amount of time we spent on these skills was minimal but effective enough to start the process. My issue with departments out there is that they do not regularly (at least every three months) have a refresher course on Defensive Tactics and PPCT or another DT training regimen. Locally we have one department that does this and also qualifies at the range every three months. All of the other departments around here qualifiy once a year and no Defensive Tactics. :erg: Guess which department has the best trained and most well rounded officers? [​IMG]
     
  5. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    The idea of a separate, police/LE program (not a black belt track program) has been advanced within our association. It's creeping along...

    I think it's something that a lot of agencies should improve. There's nothing (but organizational willpower) preventing an agency from implementing some sort of regular DT refresher; I know of a few that have. But I suspect it won't be done until there's a lawsuit where the lack of training figures into it.
     
  6. KenpoTex

    KenpoTex Senior Master

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    The problem with LE DT, as I see it, is that they spend the majority of their time working on techniques designed to restrain the subject with the minimum damage/danger possible (which is a necessary skill, don't get me wrong) and not enough time emphasising officer survival and learning to fight (which is a critical skill).
    As a result you have people that are really going to be in trouble if they're dealing with someone that is trying to kill them (like the traffic stop vid in the other thread) as opposed to someone who is just "resisting."
    I've been certified in one DT system (CLAMP) and one of my students is a certified instructor in both CLAMP and PPCT. From seeing material from these systems, I think there is some decent material; however, when you only spend a couple of weeks on the stuff during academy, and maybe 8 hours a year in re-cert, how good are you really gonna be? Of course, the same thing would apply if they were teaching better material...you're only going to be good if you put in the time to practice.

    I think one of the main problems with LE as regards training are that the departments don't want to spend the money for the constant training and are too concerned with civil liability.
    Then again, many if not most, officers do not have the proper mindset and therefore will not train unless the dept. is paying the bills (meaning they often only get the bare minimum).

    just my $0.02
     
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  7. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh so true...The last sentence says is the BEST...
     
  8. Archangel M

    Archangel M Senior Master

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    Whats the general opinion on Blauer's SPEAR system?
     
  9. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    Very true...


    Because many believe that it won't happen to them, or the standard crap I usually get here of "Hey I got my OC and Baton, I don't need any of that karotty crap"....



    100% true again...

    Sad but true..Yet these same officer will face blizzard conditions in order to show up for their bowling or dart league...
     
  10. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    It works, ANYTHING will work if you practice..His training suits are EXCELLENT..I cannot make a comment on him as this is a family site...
     
  11. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    ...As a couple of my Sgts said.." The skills I learned in the acedemy will serve me well" and "You know what I what to learn?? Nothing"...The academy for them was 15 or so years ago....
     
  12. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    I almost got a suspension for addressing that with a Leiutenant...I said IF any officer gets hurt and files a Failure -To- Train lawsuite against the department I will be called to tesify as I am a certified instructor. I will bring in all my training certs and the stack of seminar certs and Master Steve( my instructor) said he would testify as to my teaching skill ... When asked why I don't teach I will answer " Because the department ALWAYS finds a reason NOT to schedule a class, then you ALL will go down in flames.....Ohhhhh boy was THAT the wrong thing to say....
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  13. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Ouch, yes I imagine that did not go over to well. :erg:
     
  14. terryl965

    terryl965 <center><font size="2"><B>Martial Talk Ultimate<BR

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    I would imagine them not liking you at all if that happens.
     
  15. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    When I went through here in Michigan, I went through the local college and took DT. It was a 2 hr class twice a week for the semester. It was based on PPCT although some other areas were added in.

    But, for our dept. it is bare bones minimum. I am one of our PPCT instructors and we only train 8 hrs once or twice a year to keep everyone's certification.

    We try to get it more, but $$$ won't let us.

    When training, I always try to emphasize that PPCT or any other MA won't save your butt if you never practice it. You HAVE to practice the moves on your own and make it your own. Also, to understand the when/where/why to apply the stuff.

    I know alot of guys in our dept. bad mouth PPCT and say it doesn't work, and then I review their "use of force" reports, and you have subjects that are in the "active aggressive" stage and they are trying to push on pressure points alone. They don't understand how/when to strike in PPCT and how to use all of the tools available to gain control and protect themselves. I think it is because use of force is so PC that people use TOO LITTLE force than is justified to prevent lawsuits etc. But, all this does is make for bad judgements and then officers get hurt because they didn't properly prepare themselves.
     
  16. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    In Ohio you have to a week long school held at the State run academy..It's 8 to 9 hrs a day...

    Yeah, that sounds like us too..They State just handed down a mandate addressing a MANDATORY 8 hrs per year

    With me they have NO EXTRA cash needed...I'm there 5 days a week 8 hrs a day...They just won't commit

    Same here...


    Yes its a sad state of affairs..
     
  17. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    No it did not....

    Yeah, I would be getting any Christmas cards from them..I won't lose any sleep over it..
     
  18. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You know Drac when I worked in the private sector for a bit and mentioned the same thing the exact opposite happened in that they started freeing up funds for me pronto. :idunno:
     
  19. Drac

    Drac Sr. Grandmaster

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    To quote Yul Brenner in the The King and I, " It is a puzzlement"...
     
  20. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    First, to clear up a point of confusion on yours and many parts, a 'rear naked choke' or as it is referred to under some systems, a Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, is NOT by any state law i'm aware of, and certainly not in Missouri 'Lethal Force', or force likely to cause death or serious physical injury.....what you are basing your statement on is the fact that some DEPARTMENTS elevate the LVNR and similar versions of the rear naked choke to the level of lethal force.....but that elevation is artificial policy of those departments only.

    The LVNR, which is actually the specific name of the Job Functional system taught by Kansas City PD since the early 1970's....as NLETC, the company responsible for LVNR training maintains 'Result: No death, injury or litigation for excessive use of force for 34 years against agencies using the certified Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint (LVNR®) System!' http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1

    Having said that, I consider some sort of well researched version of the rear naked choke, hidaka jime, LVNR, whatever you call it, and ESSENTIAL skill for a police officer. Why? Because, despite the fantasy fears of many administrators, who have based their understanding of the risks of rear naked chokes on myths, lies and half-truths, it is a safe and HIGHLY effective technique that can be used on the street....in fact one of THE most effective single physical techniques an officer can have in his or her tool box to save his life and regain control of a situation.
     

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