Knife Fighting

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Don Roley, Oct 26, 2004.

  1. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Legal matters are hard to talk about with any degree of specificity because of different areas and their laws. By my count, we have at least people from three countries involved in this discussion.

    But I think we can all agree that we can talk about logic or we can talk about the law. But by talking about one we are not neccesarily talking about the other.
     
  2. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    Just a couple of things that aren't art specific, as I do not study ninjitsu, but may add value.

    #1. First rule for carrying a knife for self-defense: DON'T carry a knife for self-defense. Getting a CPL and carrying a pistol is actually safer for you legally as well as physically; if you pull a knife or a gun for self-defense, lethal force still needs to be justified for either in any state. But believe it or not, a legally concealed carry pistol is more legally acceptable then a blade used to cut someone to smitherines.

    That being said, if you DO carry a knife, then your knife abides by the laws of your state, AND is for utility, fishing, hunting, wilderness survival, a part of a costume or traditional dress (scottish dirk), etc., etc., etc.....and YOU CAN PROVE that is what it is for. If you carry a knife for self-defense only (especially if it LOOKS like it is for self-defense only) then that can be looked at as premeditation if you ever have to use it on someone, and it ends up in court. Observe the Preen-Wilson case for a recent example if you don't agree, however, remember that the law doesn't really whether or not you agree.

    Good self-defense is using a little common sense and taking care of these details, nipping in the bud problems you could run into later down the line.

    #2. I'd practice with your carry tool, including live cutting drills on targets, before you carry. Your traditional knifework from your style may be very good, but you need to apply that to the tool that you'll be carrying. Don sets a good example by working with the Delica and trainer.

    Work out any problems you might have with Grip, etc., in the training hall rather then the street or field.

    Also, you should be able to deploy your knife in a second or less even with an adrinaline dump; so practice opening those folders frequently.

    #3. Carry a good quality tool, especially if it is a folder. It doesn't need to be the most expensive thing at the knifeshow, but it needs to be reliable. You won't have to worry about locks failing, blades breaking, etc., with a good quality piece of steel.

    #4. For teaching: Just be clear as to WHAT your teaching and what it is for. Example: Assuming your pupils aren't military, if there is traditional/technical value, lets say, in teaching some sentry removal methods, then cool...teach em'. Don't worry too much about the psychopaths using your deadly methods (wink) for evil; hopefully you've screened them as much as you can. The reality is, the psycho's will just buy a shotgun at the nearest sporting good store if they wish to go on a spree, rather then waste their time and $$ on your class. That being said, make sure you specify what that sentry removal method is for, and that you specify that it IS NOT for self-defense. It may have value, as a lot of impractical things in martial arts have value (hence the "art" part of "martial art"). But don't have your students leaving your class thinking that that something like a sentry removal is at all practical, or that it will go over well in court as a self-defense claim.

    So, in other words, if you teach knife methods from any style, ninjitsu or otherwise, go ahead and teach the traditional way as specified in your style. However, make sure you do yourself and your pupils justice by specifying the purpose of what you are teaching, and basically seperating what is prudent and appliable for self-defense in TODAYS world, and what is not. You don't want pupils walking away thinking that things like sentry removals as in my example, or that slice-em-cut-em-gut-em up stuff that exists in almost every knife art is prudent for self-defense.

    Cool...hope that added too the discussion.

    PJMOD
     
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  3. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Don't worry, neither do we (when we train at least), but it was sound advice.
    First thing my instructor said when a couple of new guys were taught knife techniques for the first time: "has anyone in here ever cut someone's throat? Didn't think so. You WILL get busted for it. I guarantee it."
     
  4. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I just have to bring up a dead horse after reading the above.
    :deadhorse

    I have been talking about low profile knives to avoid attention. Not only is that safe for me, but I also feel that is the way the ninja of old would look at things. They did not want to attract attention by carrying anything that could be classified as a "weapon" and instead relied on staffs, kunai, etc while undercover. Some people have pointed out that certain knives I balk at are legal to carry.

    But I know and have trained briefly under Alain Burgess. If you do a web search you will find that he is a guy who has had a lot of fights and now has a few videos and books for sale. What you may not find is the fact that he is a prosecuter now. I have heard him talk about things relating to self defense and what happens in the courts afterward and it really is a wake up call.

    I just got a message from him in my mail box where he was talking about how he had handled a cane during training that had been sharpened. He said that if he had seen this thing after a violent encounter, he would be much less likely to beleive that it was a case of a person being attacked and more along the lines of someone looking for trouble. Even if you avoid criminal prosecution, you run the risk of people coming after you later for huge sums of money on their own. And their slimy lawyers will be sure to point out anything that makes it look like you were out there to try to prove to yourself that you are a macho he- man. Alain kept talking about an appearance that you were trying to hurt others.

    So, I have to say again, why would a person studying a ninjutsu tradition carry a knife that was obviously made to hurt others? If you are attacked and you use a utility knife like my Delica, you still may be in trouble if there is anyone hurt. But what do you think your chances of spending a night in jail, having to get a lawyer and facing a frivilous civil suit later if the police roll up to find you standing over someone with a blackened, double edged knife with a name like "warriors edge"? Take a look at this page just to see what sort of trouble you have going into the situation even without a nasty looking toy to make the police raise their eyebrows.
     
  5. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Hey Don, are balisongs legal to own in Japan?
     
  6. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I know you can buy them, but I do not think they are legal to carry around. I have not researched it much, so take that with a grain of salt. But I have seen them for sale.
     
  7. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    Exqueeze me? :cool: Perhaps it was a dead horse point to you, but I got a few nice comments regarding it, so perhaps it wasn't a dead horse to everyone and was worth elaborating on. Anyways, we're in agreement. Nice link to Macyoung's site, btw... :ultracool

    Paul
     
  8. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    Oh...and Don, I got nothing on my search on Alain Burgess. Could you help me out there? Tx, Paul. :asian:
     
  9. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Could it be because Don Roley is an idiot who can't spell certain people's last name correctly? :idunno:

    Here is his web page.

    http://www.burrese.com/
     
  10. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    :rofl: Thanks man...I'll check it out. :)
     
  11. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    BTW,
    I started a thread related to this, but then realized it was not Takamatsu-den specific so we moved it to the knife arts section. But I still think that most people taking part in this discussion would enjoy it.

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19327
     
  12. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Could you go into more detail please?
     
  13. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    If you fasten a small ziptie on the top of a Spyderhole it basically works like a wave feature.

    BTW, is it true that there has been a lot of injuries caused by metal training knives in the Honbu etc, which is now the reason Soke only wants us to use soft weapons in training?
    Since I long since decided to boycott Cold Steel and I think the A/F rubber trainers are ugly as crap, I've been looking into some goodies from www.takknife.com and www.sof-stx.com . Any opinions on these?
     
  14. r erman

    r erman Green Belt

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    The best training knives I've ever used were made from the same plastic they use for a lot of cutting boards. I have a very close replica of my emerson CQC-6 that a friend made.

    These are serious enough to respect if you fence with them, as they can raise welts. But they are relatively safe as well.
     
  15. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    I'm curious what prompted your boycott of Cold Steel. I've always had good experiences with anything I've bought from them. I have a couple of their rubber training knives as well, which are very nice.

    Jeff
     
  16. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Lynn Thompson quote of the day: "if every woman in America carried a sharp knife and knew how to use it, no one would be raped. The knife is the perfect self defense weapon for women, only a firearm is better."

    'Nuff said.
    We did however have one hell of a good time with the "More Proof" video at our last dojo party.
     
  17. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Any opinions on the Spyderco Perrin Street Bowie from a Bujinkan perspective, BTW?
     
  18. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I take if from the lack of responses that nobody owns one.

    I saw a picture of one. All I can say is how are you going to explain carrying something that big around and try to explain the name "street bowie" to a jury after you gut someone with it? "It is just a tool! I was not looking for trouble!" does not sound that convincing with this type of blade.
     
  19. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Looked it up and it appears that it's only the custom version that's called "street bowie". True, not the most sheeples friendly piece of steel in the world, at least not the black bladed version, but I wonder if something that looks like a kitchen knife isn't at least looked more favourably upon than a dagger or something with a sharpened false edge.
     
  20. Mountain Kusa

    Mountain Kusa Orange Belt

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    Hello Don,

    It seems everytime we turn around in our group, we are pulling out training knives. With this being said, We also train a little differently. In the U.S. Gangs are carrying the relatively new folding box cutters. They are small, negate the need to learn how to sharpen a knife, (one just changes to a new blade when needed), and are hidden easily. They will cut the bedooky out of you. The one I own has a very strong back and lock at least 1/4" and the angle of the holder exposes much of the razor.

    These can also be trained with as the blade can be removed for training, though extreme care should be taken to ensure it is done. We have even trained with the regular box cutters as used in a warehouse.

    I have been told by a policeman friend of mine that they want to cut you and make you bleed so you will know you can die and rob you or worse. I once saw a friend of mine cut with a 1 1/2" blade on the palm of the hand which resulted in a 8 hour surgery, 5000 dollar bill, and loss of feeling in that hand for the rest of his life even after neuro surgery, (this was 20 years ago) because he wanted to be stupid and figure a small blade would do nothing.

    Good question and posts123
     

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