Knife Fighting

[Rich Parsons]

As a matter of fact, that language was added to the statute -- went into effect in 2002 as I recall -- precisely because law enforcement officers were charging people with misdemeanors simply because they were in possession of folders which could, if one tried hard enough or enough times, be opened with no other action than a wrist-flick.

Thank you Dale.

I like to understand the other state's history and statutes as well, as I travel and also many a state will adopt what others have as a starting point.

Best regards

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

This thread has been dormant for a while, so I just thought I'd share something I forgot to mention before...while in Japan (Ueno one evening to be more precise) I was looking around for the place where someone had told me I could find an iaito, just outside the station, but managed to get lost just enough to find my way to a cutlery store where I asked the shopkeeper if he had any butterfly/balisong knives. He told me they were illegal in Japan. However, upon asking two police officers, they directed me to the (supposedly) infamous illegal weapons store I realized I had been looking for the whole time.:ultracool If it's a weapon, and illegal, that shop has it. Of course, the swords I found there weren't the most high-quality available, so I settled for an Al Mar Warrior, an Emerson kerambit knockoff and an aluminum aikuchi with a wooden lacquered scabbard. Though I'll admit I regret I didn't trust that the balisongs they offered were actual USA imports and got myself one...

 

[Don Roley]

On another forum Chris Moon, a very knowlegable practicioner of Takeuchi ryu, said the following.

Just recently I was watching the Takagi Yoshin Ryu video from Hatsumi Sensei and I could not help but notice how many of the kata there resemble Takenouchi Ryu kogusoku just minus the blade. It is not hard to make these interchangeable

I know that in Koto ryu certain sections are supposed to be used with small blades as variations of the standard kata. (BTW- Kizaru is the guy here that really knows the most about that school. If you get the chance to meet and train with him in it I would suggest you take it.) The above quote says to me that maybe other schools have that type of movement not just possible, but built in and intended.

I have thought about pushing one of the instructors I see fairly regularly now on the matter of formal knife fighting like in the Koto ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu and was wondering if anyone can make some suggestions on where to start, etc.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Aren't the "blades" used in Koto ryu teppan, rather than knives? If memory serves me correctly, teppan are like regular senban shuriken, only without sharpened edges (but still pointy enough to slash with).

 

[Don Roley]

Koto ryu does have Teppan and I used them in the year of Koto ryu here in Japan. But that is not what I was talking about.

 

[saru1968]

Hi All



So Far in my experience of training in the Bujinkan in britain, the person who's name pops up with regard to knfe fighting is Norman Smithers and so far i've yet to hear a negative about his knife skills.



If ever he's running a course on this go along and see for yourself. The way he uses knives with his taijutsu is amazing and like hidden weapons you only know hes got a knife after you've been cut/stabbed.



Only my opinion though.



Gary

 

[Don Roley]

For those that don't know Norman, he is ex- French Foreign Legion and SAS.

I don't think he knows my name, but we have interacted while he was here. I respect his knife skills, but I know he is trying to gain a deeper insight into the way things are done in Japan rather than his past experience.

 

[Kizaru]

I know that in Koto ryu certain sections are supposed to be used with small blades as variations of the standard kata.

I've heard the same thing. Particularly that the first movements in the shoden level techniques are supposed to facilitate a smooth, concealed draw and the final movements are supposed to help you get your tool out of the opponent's body (like the left hand claw strike at the end of Yokuto or the Ganseki Nage at the end of Koyoku) so you're ready for the next attacker. Other sections have other fine points as well. As far as it being a "small blade" though, I think that's all relative. I could be wrong, but I think traditionally, that "small blade" was a shoto or wakizashi or something similar to the Takenouchi ryu kogusoku wedged into the belt flat across the belly. Of course, I'm sure with a little imagination, anyone could apply the principles to a modern folder or what not.

(BTW- Kizaru is the guy here that really knows the most about that school. If you get the chance to meet and train with him in it I would suggest you take it.)

I would suggest you don't believe everything you read on the internet.

(The above quote says to me that maybe other schools have that type of movement not just possible, but built in and intended.

I would agree.

(Aren't the "blades" used in Koto ryu teppan, rather than knives? If memory serves me correctly, teppan are like regular senban shuriken, only without sharpened edges (but still pointy enough to slash with).

Once again I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that senban shuriken were organic to Koto ryu Koppojutsu while the teppan (flat iron plate) was organic to another form of Koppojutsu taught in the Bujinkan. I believe that the founder of that art had a reputation for being able to break swords with a single punch; although he probably had a teppan concealed in his hand when pulling it off.

As far as the sharpened edges on senban shuriken, it's been my experience that the edges are NOT sharpened, so that they can be "palmed" similar to how a modern magician would "palm" a coin.

 

[Kizaru]

The following page has some photos of Takenouchi ryu students training with the kogusoku.

http://www.geocities.jp/minamoto_hitotsugu/

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Actually, I recall having been told about the difference between senban shuriken and teppan while in Japan, but I don't know by whom.

 

[Kizaru]

The following page has some photos of Takenouchi ryu students training with the kogusoku.

http://www.geocities.jp/minamoto_hitotsugu/

Sorry, to see the page with the kogusoku, you need to click on 小具足腰之廻(the second one down from "menu").

Enjoy.

 

[Kreth]

Sorry, to see the page with the kogusoku, you need to click on 小具足腰之廻(the second one down from "menu").

Enjoy.

It's kind of hard to tell from the pics on that site, is the kogusoku a specific type of knife, or a dull-edged weapon similar to a kunai? A google search turned up mostly aikijujutsu and jujutsu sites, and what appears to be a French escrima site.

Jeff

 

[r erman]

It's kind of hard to tell from the pics on that site, is the kogusoku a specific type of knife, or a dull-edged weapon similar to a kunai? A google search turned up mostly aikijujutsu and jujutsu sites, and what appears to be a French escrima site.

Jeff

As far as I know, 'kogusoku' is another term for unarmed and small weapons combat--like jujutsu, taijutsu, yawara...etc.

Maybe, I'm missing something. Are you talking about kozuka-kogai?

 

[r erman]

It's kind of hard to tell from the pics on that site, is the kogusoku a specific type of knife, or a dull-edged weapon similar to a kunai? A google search turned up mostly aikijujutsu and jujutsu sites, and what appears to be a French escrima site.

Answered my own and your question. Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku is a specific set of kata within that ryu that deal with tanto and wakazashi grappling techniques...

FWIW, Yanagi Ryu has a pretty extensive system of tantojutsu--I believe Bugei.com still sells a video covering some of this.

 

[Kreth]

Answered my own and your question. Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku is a specific set of kata within that ryu that deal with tanto and wakazashi grappling techniques...

FWIW, Yanagi Ryu has a pretty extensive system of tantojutsu--I believe Bugei.com still sells a video covering some of this.

Thanks, that makes sense. When I read Kizaru's post referring to the kogusoku, I assumed he was referring to a weapon. Looking back at a few of the links I turned up, they seem to jibe with your previous post.

Jeff

 

[Kizaru]

Thanks, that makes sense. When I read Kizaru's post referring to the kogusoku, I assumed he was referring to a weapon.

I've been to visit a Takenouchi ryu dojo in the Tokyo area, and the students and shihan refered to the long training knives they were using as "kogusoku". They refered to the techniques as "Kogusoku No Gata". Now, I'm not part of the Takenouchi ryu, but I'm guessing that somewhere in there's some dojo jargon rearing it's head. Spoken and written Japanese, like spoken and written English, are often a little different.

The webpage I cited before has this to say:

この小具足腰之廻の形は、われ、相手とも一尺二寸の小太刀を用いて、座合から組討となり、相手を小太刀で仕留める技で、鎧組討を想定した形である。相手は素手の場合や太刀で掛かる形もあります。

Roughly translated: "In these Kogusoku Goshi No Mawari Gata, myself, along with my opponent are using kodachi of 1 shaku 2 sun (about 14 inches). This is a hypothetical form of attack and defense, where from both of us being seated we come together in attack and the opponent is brought down by a technique with the kodachi. There are also situations [or applications] where the opponent is unarmed or using a tachi."

So, formally they're calling the long knife they're using (on that particular page) a "kodachi of 1 shaku 2 sun". I think informally, they refer to it as a "kogusoku".

Semantics, semantics, semantics.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A while ago I toyed with the idea of giving someone a surprise by doing a John McClane - that is, strapping a weapon (in this case a knife) between my shoulder blades. Since I figured it would make rolling on semi-hard surfaces a bit awkward I gave up the idea, but lately I've been thinking about getting a Benchmade CBK and removing the cutting edge to achieve the desired result. Any thoughts on this, or for that matter, push knives in general?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nimravus,

I truly enjoy working out with Push Knives and they are extremly effective for close encounters! One of the advantages of them is that they are hard to disarm, though not impossible! They also puncture well and can slash! They are a great tool for the military operator! However, for pure self defense, while they would be great to use they are generally illegal in most places and would really catch the eye of the Police or the local prosecutor! For that reason in my opinion they are more of a military application tool than a pure self defense tool! I know if I was behind enemy lines, after my M-16 (or equivalent), handgun, grenade, possibly Machete or Tomahawk a push dagger would be a very effective tool down the line!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Cryozombie]

Speaking of Push knives... a freind of mine sent me a link to this for 5 bucks...


Im sure the quality is OH SO FINE...<cough cough> but I think I may order one to add to my collection...

 

[arnisador]

Why the two blades? It looks like scissors!