Why "Knife arts" will get you killed

[Shadow Hunter]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
No, I don't necessarily think I'm going to get out of that scenario you described Scot free (no pun intended). BUT I'M GOING TO TRY.

What would you do? Please, I seek your illumination.

Every limb that was free would be used to try to grab and/or stop his blade from stabbing me. Only when I was reasonably sure I could do it without getting cut would I go for my own weapon. That is the best choice in a bad situation.

That makes sense, but like the cops that always go for their gun when a guy comes at them with a knife, the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing.

This is not to say that everyone who uses a knife thinks like this. Just the guys whose whole world view revolves around them being a knife fighter.

 

[Phil Elmore]

The mods have asked that questions of your background and claims be confined to a single thread, and this thread seems like the place. So:

Given the ridiculous statements you've made in this and other threads, the arrogance with which you've proclaimed yourself an indestructible knife-fighter-neutralizer, your obvious and transparently fabricated implications of being some sort of high-speed super-secret black-bag operator, why should anyone take seriously any advice you try to give them on the subject of any sort of self-defense whatsoever?

To put it another way, there's no polite way to say that you sound like a Virtual Tough Guy living in a fantasy world.

To put it yet another way, real "operators" don't wanter the Internet telling the world that they don't want to talk about the things they can't talk about while dispensing knife-fighting defense tips on the side.

 

[ABN]

Knife Fighter = Talented Culinary School Graduate who has seen "The HUnted" 100+ times.


I am curious to know where you gained your stereotype of the machismo driven knife fighter. You said "the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing. This is not to say that everyone who uses a knife thinks like this. Just the guys whose whole world view revolves around them being a knife fighter."

I spent about 4 hours yesterday with a guy who is very into Kali, didn't call himself a "knife fighter" not ego driven at all. I learned quite a bit from him in fact, about the history and philosophy of Kali. I used to work twice a week with a couple of guys who had a variety of martial arts experience some Kali, some SFC, some TKD, etc. In fact after 12 years in the military, working in bars and restaurants, and living in urban areas, I can't remember one instance of encountering the "knife fighter" you describe.

Where does your hostility towards knife arts practicioners stem from? If you truly believe that you have vaild input and ideas then you really should have started this thread with a much more receptive and open mind. You could have presented your thoughts in a far more professional manner.

Just my half pence,

andy

 

[Karazenpo]

I wish to concur with 'Clapping Tiger', I too have taken OC training in regards to my profession (police officer). It is by no means an end all. It is just another option or tool we use but it certainly isn't 100 per cent, nothing is, not even the handgun. Like 'Clapping Tiger' stated we too fought like hell after being blasted with the stuff. Makes ya think.
As I have posted before and I will repeat myself for the sake of this discussion. Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson) Police Survival seminars-5 years of research into both police and civillian survivors of edged weapon attacks showed that those that did survive, did so by securing the knife weilding arm. So they came up with the acronym, G.U.N.-Grab, Undo & Neutralize. Dan Inosanto was their technical advisor on edged weapons. There is a video out by them called 'Surviving Edged Weapons'. It was also stated there is a 90 per cent or BETTER chance that you will be cut in an attempt to disarm. One last thing. Professor Greg Harper, highly respected, tough, talented & tough as nails Kajukenbo man and bodyguard to Kajukenbo's founder Sijo Adriano Emperado- He has stated in his school 'a knife means death'. I'll leave it at that.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

That makes sense, but like the cops that always go for their gun when a guy comes at them with a knife, the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing.

Well, there ya go. I never met any of those guys. As for a cop going for his gun all the time, or the guy going for his knife all the time...geez. If he can get it out and upgrade his lethality by that factor...why not? I know an ex-cop that had his arm layed open to the bone by a woman. She cut him while he was fighting her husband...he never saw the knife before she nailed him. He got his gun out and blew her knee away. Should he have kept it in the holster and "dealt with the knife"?

From what I've seen of Sayoc, they train the "Oh S---" scenarios a heck of a lot. So do other FMA's. Many people out there seem to address it pretty reasonably.

But as a "knife man" you think that from a wrestling situation you can get your own knife out in time to save your life? How about dealing with the knife he has before going for your own?

Who said I was a "knife man?" I carry guns from time to time. That doesn't make me a "gun man". Or were you using the global "you"? Weapons are a tool...not a crutch.

Loved the VTG article, Phil. I say that at risk of being a shoe-licker by the article's very definition.


SCS

 

[Karazenpo]

quote: That makes sense, but like the cops that always go for their gun when a guy comes at them with a knife, the guys who call themselves knife fighters go for their knives instead of the logical thing.

I hope the hell this doesn't mean that a cop is not supposed to go for his gun all the time when a knife is pulled. If it does please allow me to set the record straight. A police officer is trained in the use of deadly force when a knife is employed. He is not to try empy hand, OC or a baton. Those methods are only employed if he/she cannot get to their sidearm in time. Anything less than drawing a gun is considered an under-reaction to the threat and was an improper threat assessment. An over-reaction can get a suspect killed but an under-reaction can get the police officer killed. I have made that mistake several times and am lucky I'm still alive. I will not make it again. Anyone who thinks otherwise is smok'n some real whacky weed!, lol. Remember, a police officer is paid and trained to win not lose (I heard a judge say this once first hand in a use of force situation with a baton) A deadly force street encounter is not a matter of honor, principle or pride. It is a matter of survival. The bottom line is the officer goes home after his tour of duty and its just too bad for the a-hole that threatened his life! If that quote was mean't as a dig toward the police then it's like I've always said: "We have too many "Dojo Warriors" out there that fight in theory only. To again quote the body guard of Adriano Emperado, Professor Greg Harper, "A knife means death". If myself and SCS misunderstood that quote then I apologize. Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe Shuras, a police officer since 1977.

 

[arnisador]

I would certainly hope a LEO could draw a gun when confronted with a knife!

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=526

In particular:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=4155#post4155

NOTE - The Author again wishes to go on record - IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE". --William Ewart Fairbairn

 

[Karazenpo]

quote: NOTE - The Author again wishes to go on record - IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE". --William Ewart Fairbairn

Arnisador: Yes there is. It's called LUCK!!!!!! lol.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Shadow Hunter

Honestly, people who claim to be knife fighters have got to have the most macho attitude of any martial art out there. You can find old ladies and reasonably normal people studying self defense arts. But the guys who call themselves knife artists are almost 100 percent young guys who are in deseperate need of a real life.

Personally I think the most macho or arrogant Martial artists, are . . ., just about any one from any style.

The Strikers think/assume/train to know out in one or two punches. Including those with knives.

The Kickers think/assume/train to know out in one or two kicks. Including those with knives.

The Grapplers think/assume/train to know out in one or two locks/throws/pins. Including those with knives.

The Stick Jocks . . .

And The list goes on.

So, just think about your own macho attitude here

 

[hardheadjarhead]

And The list goes on.

Gun guys, too.

Over-reliance on ANYTHING is a mistake. Any time we are quick to dismiss an approach we set ourselves up for failure. People get locked into their method and become downright arthritic in their thinking.

SCS

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by hardheadjarhead
Gun guys, too.

Over-reliance on ANYTHING is a mistake. Any time we are quick to dismiss an approach we set ourselves up for failure. People get locked into their method and become downright arthritic in their thinking.

SCS

Reminds me of a conversation I heard between two non-martial artists regarding the arts. In effect, they said if anyone tried to use some martial arts techniques on them, they'd just pull out a gun and shoot.

I know for a fact that one of them did not even own a gun, and even if he did, neither of them actually ever carried a gun on them.

Cthulhu

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Originally posted by Cthulhu
Reminds me of a conversation I heard between two non-martial artists regarding the arts. In effect, they said if anyone tried to use some martial arts techniques on them, they'd just pull out a gun and shoot.

I know for a fact that one of them did not even own a gun, and even if he did, neither of them actually ever carried a gun on them.

Cthulhu

That's when they point their .45 caliber index finger at you and they say "bang".

I had a friend that once said he'd just shoot me with his .357 magnum if I ever used martial arts on him. I asked him where his gun was. He said in his car, 300 yards away, locked in the glove compartment. The ammunition was kept in the trunk, in accordance with state law at the time (Hawaii, 1974).

Another guy told a black belt I know that he'd "go out to my car and get my .45!" This after a verbal confrontation. The black belt, a large and intimidating man, told him to sit and not move...if he even got up to go to the bathroom, he'd knock him out. The guy just meekly sat there until the black belt decided he wanted to leave about a half hour and two beers later. The guy with the gun in his car was glued to his seat, terrified of the black belt...and for good reason.

I love guns...but they're not a panacea.

Regards,

Steve Scott

 

[Rich Parsons]

Being off topic yet I wil chime in:

I walked around the corner of a place I was bouncing. I practically walk into a guy pulling his gun out of holster under his arm. It was pointed at the young punks through his jacket.

I smiled and said excuse me. Could you do me a favor or two? The guy was totally taken by surprise. I asked him if I could take care of the problem for him myself or if not then could I quietly walk away and go inside the brick building to not be a witness?

This guys friend chimes in and starts to tell me the story. These two young punks were hitting on and commenting on the two men's women. (* Not sure if they were married or just with, never asked *) One of the women then told the gun holder to get into the car and they would all just leave. I had made sure I was not between him and the punks. He did not want to leave by being told too or by being scared off. I asked him to put away his toy and to continue with his plans for the evening, and that he could come back in the future, just leave his toy in the car. I would then go take care of the punks. He smiled and left.
(* The gun under control and out of sphere of responsibilty was my goal, i.e. no one hurt *)

I walked over to the punks and asked them what happened. Their story was that they had said the ladies were nice looking and then the guys took exception and one thing lead to another. They followed them out to the parking lot and were going to leave, but were having "fun" with the arguement. I asked him if they knew they had a gun pointed at them? Their reply. Gun? I will go get my Dad's Gun! I aksed where is it? At home in the safe. I said not much good when his was pointed at you. They could not believe it. NO way! was their comment. I had to explain that a gun could be pointed at them when the guy had his hand inside his jacket. The young punks started getting all upset and telling me how they were going to go home and then come back with their Dad's Gun and wait for them. I told them to go home and not come back. If they did, I would call the police. They left, no one got hurt that night.

Train Well Think smart and be aware
:asian:

 

[OULobo]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Being off topic yet I wil chime in:

I walked around the corner of a place I was bouncing. I practically walk into a guy pulling his gun out of holster under his arm. It was pointed at the young punks through his jacket.

I smiled and said excuse me. Could you do me a favor or two? The guy was totally taken by surprise. I asked him if I could take care of the problem for him myself or if not then could I quietly walk away and go inside the brick building to not be a witness?

This guys friend chimes in and starts to tell me the story. These two young punks were hitting on and commenting on the two men's women. (* Not sure if they were married or just with, never asked *) One of the women then told the gun holder to get into the car and they would all just leave. I had made sure I was not between him and the punks. He did not want to leave by being told too or by being scared off. I asked him to put away his toy and to continue with his plans for the evening, and that he could come back in the future, just leave his toy in the car. I would then go take care of the punks. He smiled and left.
(* The gun under control and out of sphere of responsibilty was my goal, i.e. no one hurt *)

I walked over to the punks and asked them what happened. Their story was that they had said the ladies were nice looking and then the guys took exception and one thing lead to another. They followed them out to the parking lot and were going to leave, but were having "fun" with the arguement. I asked him if they knew they had a gun pointed at them? Their reply. Gun? I will go get my Dad's Gun! I aksed where is it? At home in the safe. I said not much good when his was pointed at you. They could not believe it. NO way! was their comment. I had to explain that a gun could be pointed at them when the guy had his hand inside his jacket. The young punks started getting all upset and telling me how they were going to go home and then come back with their Dad's Gun and wait for them. I told them to go home and not come back. If they did, I would call the police. They left, no one got hurt that night.

Train Well Think smart and be aware
:asian:

Well handled. It seems that so many people want to escalate the confrontation after the fact ("I'll go home and get my dad's gun"). It's ridiculous to think that. The people that are ready, willing and able to use most weapons will use them without any warning.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Well handled. It seems that so many people want to escalate the confrontation after the fact ("I'll go home and get my dad's gun").

Its amazing how many people don't know how indefensible that is in court.

SCS

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

This has got to be the most ego driven thread ever.As a former corrections officer,and former hard drinking fight starting maniac with 20 years experience in Kali I can honestly say I have gone against a knife without one and Im still here to tell the tales.JKD instructor Larry Hartsell has often said"sometimes you get the bear and sometimes the bear gets you" Now if you wanted to jump out of the bushes and stab me while I was walking down the street talking to my girlfriend youd probably kill me.If you pulled a knife out and asked me for my wallet I can assure you I will stick thay knife up your a##.NYC can be a rough place and it also has its own knife culture.To say FMA training will get you killed is just a dumb thing to say. Barry www.combatartsusa.com k"y

 

[Jerry]

As a long time follower of discussion boards... it's bad form in the extreme to resurrect a multi-year dead thread.

The people who posted on this may not even still be here. Protocol says, if there's a point to be made, start a new thread about that point. If it's just a comment on the thread... it's too late.

 

[Cruentus]

As a long time follower of discussion boards... it's bad form in the extreme to resurrect a multi-year dead thread.

The people who posted on this may not even still be here. Protocol says, if there's a point to be made, start a new thread about that point. If it's just a comment on the thread... it's too late.

That is good advise. Especially if the thread was heated...you don't want to be preceived as a trouble maker who likes to beat a dead horse.

Paul

 

[Tgace]

:deadhorse

But since the dead have arisen....the deadly myth of the "knife fighter".
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.htm#knifefighter

 

[Cryozombie]

Actually the thread died in 03...