Knife Fighting

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Don Roley, Oct 26, 2004.

  1. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I work out with the knife a lot. I mean, a lot.

    I noticed on another board that people were talking about Bujinkan Knife fighting skills as if they were going to face a knife with a knife.

    I know the guy that has this web site and according to him and other I trust, that just does not happen all that much in North America.

    I try to use a knife as if I was facing a club or a short sword. Does anyone else do stuff like this, or do they also use it as if it was going to be a knife duel?

    For that matter, I was wondering just how sensitive a subject teaching people how to carve up others is in North America. I will not be in Japan my whole life
    and was wondering just how much trouble Bujinkan instructors might get into by teaching both ninjutsu and knife fighiting. America can be a pretty silly place in terms of things like that.

    Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.
     
  2. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    I'll just say this...Mariette van der Vliet.

    Just take my advice 'cause I won't tell you twice that you'd better play nice or she'll put you on ice...%-}
     
  3. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Oh c'mon, don't tease me like that. All I can say is that she is not Japanese. So, where is she from? South Africa? What is her experience in the Bujinkan, etc? And how "pure" is her stuff, or is this a case of someone taking stuff from other arts and packaging it as Bujinkan? I can do that myself with my latest experience in silat thank you very much.

    (BTW- silat is a very good art when taught by a good teacher. The guy whom I stayed with and learned from is worth his weight in gold. If there is an art you are thinking of studying other than Bujinkan you can't do much worse than look him up. Oh- did I forget to mention his name? maybe if you buy me a beer sometime.... :supcool: )
     
  4. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    OK, I'll weigh in. Most of my knife training has been knife vs. knife or muto dori. For lack of many tanto kata, it's mostly been a case of adapting other techniques (ie. empty hand or shoto).

    Jeff
     
  5. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    Umm, she's married to Sveneric Bogsater, whom I'd be very surprised if you don't know who that is??? Shes' from the Netherlands, has been training since 1984, has plenty of combat experience from her work with street gangs (though I'm not totally clear as to what that was all about), and almost always teaches knife/counter knife-oriented taijutsu at her seminars. Both using knives and defending against them. Very simple, very efficient, very brutal. http://www.ninpo-berlin.de/Deutsch/members/mariette.htm

    And there ARE knife kata in the Bujinkan as far as I know, it's just that they aren't listed in any densho. I have personally seen written collections by Bujinkan shidoshi of knife kata dealing with sentry removal for example. The Jinenkan also teaches specific tanto kata, where tori uses knives to defeat swordsmen.
     
  6. AnimEdge

    AnimEdge Guest

    The knife fighting i have gone over in ninjutsu(RBWI) for knife on knife is a general they strike you deflect into a bunch of blows/techs and end it(kill/disable/runaway) there, but it is quite interesting to watch people spar with knifes on how much they would be cut up and so on if it was a real blade
     
  7. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Don was asking about Bujinkan knife training.
    Please keep the discussion on-topic.

    Thanks,
    Jeff
     
  8. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Don,

    We have done Knife on Knife, and Knife vs Stick.

    We also have trained in HOW to use a knife... as far as how to stab and cut with it (we stab and cut a target, of course, not another person, using a "live" knife...)

    Interesting lesson there... most of them Folders you carry in your pocket... (Or we carry, or whatever) those little finger knubs are NOT enough to keep your hand on the knife and keep your hand from sliding along the blade when you really stab someone/thing... Not pretty if you dont learn that in advance and adjust how you hold it.
     
  9. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    Can I get an "AMEN" from the audience please!

    :cheers:

    I carry a Spyderco Delica and have a plastic version of the thing. What I like about the small size of it is that in a "boshi-ken" grip I have the pommel firmly resting against the meaty part of my palm. I practice full power stabs with the plastic version to check my grip.

    I just can't believe that a teacher in lawyer- rich North America would try this sort of thing with live blades like you say. Hell of a way to find out your grip won't hold up.
     
  10. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    I mainly use my Benchmade MDP Griptilian with trainer for that type of training.
     
  11. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

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    Oh... dont mis-understand...

    The grip thing we do with a plastic knife... before we get to the "actuall" cutting and stabbing we do with a live one.
     
  12. r erman

    r erman Green Belt

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    I spend a lot of time with the knife as well. From a japanese MA perspective the tanto was a back-up weapon, and used primarily in conjunction with jujutsu technique as a force multiplier(envision a samurai who lost his sword throwing down and subduing another and then dispatching with his tanto or wakizashi). This is what I try to do mostly now-a-days--using the blade in conjunction with different throws and locks or deploy it afterwards with kime waza.

    I also work alot on blade retention and unarmed blade defense(tanto dori).

    I do enjoy blade vs. blade as well and have a lot of fun with this, but it is knife fencing and not knife fighting in my book.

    As far as american sensitivity, I don't 'teach' blade deployment or more offensive/pre-emptive blade technique to those not invioved with military or law enforcement. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so with most students. I do, however, teach blade defense and retention to those who want it...
     
  13. Don Roley

    Don Roley Senior Master

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    I was thinking about the matter of blade retention. I have seen some books I can mention on knife fighting and, in most of them,their ways of keeping someone from grabbing your arm is pretty crude and ineffecient compared with the te hodoki I work on. And when you use the skills from eda- koppo ........

    Anyone else besides me noticed that and use it as part of training?
     
  14. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    Pardon my ignorance (and Japanese illiteracy), but what is eda koppo?? :asian:
     
  15. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    A simple way of putting it would be pocket stick techniques, mainly concerned with the locking of arm and pressure point striking.
     
  16. heretic888

    heretic888 Senior Master

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    Ah, I believe I know what you speak of. Thanks. :asian:
     
  17. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Well, I have one of the Cold Steel Pro-lite folders, since we're comparing schwantzes here... :D
    Yes, I think te hodoki is very useful for knife retention, not to mention I get a kick out of the perplexed look on someone's face the first time I show them how easy it is for me to escape their wrist grab *and* cut them. I also like some of the eda koppo stuff (and think it applies well to an un-opened folder), I teach it as a "non-lethal" option.

    Jeff
     
  18. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Another comment... IMO, folders are not suited for stabbing motions, they're more useful for slicing or slashing cuts. A bit grim, but I'd be more concerned with a stab, that my blade would end up embedded in bone...

    Jeff
     
  19. Grey Eyed Bandit

    Grey Eyed Bandit Master of Arts

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    As long as it has a good finger choil, like the ones on the CRKT Ryan Model 7 and Benchmade AFCK, you should be fine.
     
  20. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Well, what I was getting at was more the blade type. True, with a good hilt and grip, you should be ok, but the majority of folders don't have a stabbing point.

    Jeff
     

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