Why "Knife arts" will get you killed

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Shadow Hunter

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This has been on my mind for a long time.

Why is it that most styles that claim to teach knives and knife defenses will get you killed if you actually face a knife unarmed?

Here is my view on the matter.

Some arts, most noteably south east Asian arts, tend to teach the knife. In their cultures you can't get from point A to B without using a machete, so the chance of meeting someone with one is very high. So you learn how to face a machete with a machete.

If you do not have a machete, you will at least have a work knife. So you can expect everyone else to be carrying one as well. Add to this a culture where everyone is worried about their face and combine a dash of dueling culture and you end up with arts that put great emphisis on knife against knife from the front and only one opponent.

If that is what you are facing, this works out great.

If you are in this culture and you are unarmed, you will be facing people who have trained to use knives against others with knives. They will not do certain things because the other guy can do so much damage against them if they have a knife. So you know what type of moves you will face.

But what if the other guy is training to take out people who do not have knives? What if the other guy is not a part of a culture that has a strong dueling culture and instead places great importance on just killing the other guy when he can't fight back?

Sad to say, in America today there are not many people who are looking for a knife fight. They can get killed if they face a knife. They would much rather stick a knife in you when you can't use one on them. They don't want the glory of a duel, the just want the kill you.

In that case, wouldn't they train and do things differently than someone who is training against another knife? Yet so much of what we know as knife defense comes from arts that only deal with duelest- oriented mentalities.

I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife. I would have to deal with some bruises and injuries from what they would do to me, but I would only have to tag them a few times to kill them. If we both had knives, the dynamics would change. But if I really wanted to kill them I would not attack them while they had a knife. So what they do is not suited for the strategy I would use when I knew that the only knife in the fight was mine. If they had a knife and got it out, I would run. If they tried their stuff that works against someone used to fighting another person with a knife I would kill them. That is not bragging, it is just the reality of the situation.

I can expect a lot of people to scream about this. But I will stand by my position. I know how to kill the typical guy who calls himself a knife fighter. If he is unarmed and I have a knife then I will be able to take advantage of his conventional thinking and stick him repeatedly while only taking some minor damage in return. It is not pretty, it is not duelling and it is not knife "fighting". It is a way of killing someone who has no knife with knife every time. And the more used you are to knife fighting, the more vulnerable you are to the techniques.

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OULobo

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This feels like a baited comment, but sometimes the best way to deal with a trap is to spring it.

I think, first off the key is cross training. I cross into combatives, FMAs, LEO, grappling, ect. stuff as much as possible. These tend to put a stop to the idea of "duels".

Second is realism training. This is the easiest thing to do if you have a partner who is willing. Try as many situations (multiple attackers, different dress, different weapons) and settings (dark, rain, blaring sun) as possible or available.

Third is awarness. The only way to train this, besides examining your lifestyle and habits, is to test it. My friends and partners are constantly attacking me and me them, mostly when I'm not expecting it. This isn't just in the gym either. I have friends that sneak up on me in bars, on the street, anywhere. They usually just fire a kick, slip on a choke or give me a finger jab to the ribs. It lets me know where the holes in my awarness are. The only problem I see in this is that I am not giving my all in these situations and that is a bad habit to get into, but a better way to keep my friends around.

I think that most everything else can be covered in the gym with innovative training and sparring.

As for the "assasin" vibe I'm catching here, I don't make enemies with that much motivation to kill; I almost always have a, or multiple knives on me, if not then at least some "adapted" weapons (pens, chopsticks, keychains); finally, most of the time I don't have enough ego to mess with anyone attacking past the first shot with a weapon, I'm outta there.
 

Phil Elmore

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I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife.

:rolleyes:
 
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Shadow Hunter

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So far no one seems to understand.

Ask yourself these three questions.

1- are you willing to take a blow to give a blow? To some the answer will be no, bigger people tend to say yes. And a lot of people will answer that they will take a minor blow to give a better blow. This is an unarmed vs unarmed response. (U vsU)

2- are you willing to take a knife thrust to deliever your own knife thrust tot he other guy? Now the answers really start to end up in the "no' catagory. It is quite possible to deliver a thrust that kills the other guy in a knife fight, stagger a few feet and collapse dead yourself. So you tend to be more cautious when you are armed vs armed (A vs A) than U vs U.

Now, you watch a typical knife art class and you will see people attacking others with knives. When both guys have knives, the attacker attacks in certain ways. But when only one guy has the knife he attacks the same way as when he was facing a guy with a knife!!!!

Now ask yourself my last question,

3- would you be willing to take a broken rib to stick your knife in the other guys heart? All of a sudden you start to see a lot more hands raise up, eh? So if you are willing to take a few blows, get a black eye and such in order to kill the other guy, wouldn't you be doing something a lot less cautious than the number 2 scenario? So why are all the knife defenses you see in the typical 'knife art' meant to deal with someone attacking like they were facing another knife?

Give me a knife and let me loose against someone who has trained in a FMA or knife art and I will kill them if they don't have a knife. That may sound like bragging- but it is only my experience. It is not really my abilities, it is the fact that the knife when used correctly gives such an overwhelming advantage. I have yet to meet anyone who could overcome this advantage whom studies a knife art. Most never even have faced training partners who attack like the Gracies rather than another FMA stylist.

This is why studying a knife art can get you killed. You think too much inside the box and tend not to realize that some people will risk broken bones to carve out your heart.
 
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Cuentada

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Give me a knife and let me loose against someone who has trained in a FMA or knife art and I will kill them if they don't have a knife. That may sound like bragging- but it is only my experience.

- hmmm maybe it is only your experience, but in combat there are no absolutes just opportunities....i'm sure FMAs have knife neutralizations no? I'd hazard to guess that most FMAs DO think outside the box, and if they don't they're living on Fantasy Island.
 

Phil Elmore

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Give me a knife and let me loose against someone who has trained in a FMA or knife art and I will kill them if they don't have a knife. That may sound like bragging-

Yes, it does.
 

OULobo

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I don't think I buy all that. I think that FMAs have already dealt with any scenario you can think of and I don't think they are "duel based" either. That may be how some people are teaching it or how it has been westernized in America, but most filipinos will tell you about the crime in the Philippine's city's barrios and how people get stabbed from the shadows, in crowds, by groups, in groups, ect. I think most of your statements are also a little saturated in generalities (or ego).
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Originally posted by OULobo
I don't think I buy all that. I think that FMAs have already dealt with any scenario you can think of and I don't think they are "duel based" either.

I can only speak from my decades of experience of course, but so far I have not run across anyone who practices a knife centered art that could stand up unarmed to some of the nasty moves that are being taught in some corners of the world on using a knife to kill someone.

But they all think they can until I prove them otherwise. Within a few minutes I can teach them the nasty moves and then they can turn the tables on me. I would not go up against many of them on a knife to knife combat, but few criminals would take that chance anyways.

Again, this is just my experience after a few decades of a learning nasty stuff.
 
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Joe Talmadge

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I've just started training, so feel free to ignore whatever I say. But I've heard of many drills that seem to address the issues raised here. Here's one: one guy is the "bad guy", he launches an aggressive street-style or prison-style attack without regard for defense. He continues until the good guy has disarmed, immobilized, or "killed" him (variations include good guy having knife in pocket at first, having to make space and draw before defending).

This drill seems to me to be one of several aimed at the above situation, where dueling isn't part of the equation. Slap on a fencing mask (so you can allow knife attacks to the face) and allow strikes and you've probably gotten as close as you can in a training situation to the most likely type of attack you'd face on the street ... I mean, right?

If the main point is that we should be training for realistic scenarios -- and I agree strongly that a prison-style all-offense attack is by far the most likely -- then I agree with that point. But certainly, the FMA guys who are training me do their best to train and drill for this scenario, including high-intensity hard-contact drills.

Joe
[email protected] <- note zeroes in the word "h00k"
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Ok,
Joe made a point that I would like to address.

yes, some arts do scenarios that deal with realistic attacks. They still do not seem to do the really nasty stuff that I have been taught. (Again- just my experience over the years.)

However, everyone seems to get a woody over how one style can whip the butt of another art if they both get into a ring with knives. Thus, knife on knife training and outlook dominates the way "knife arts" are practiced. They just have problems even thinking in another manner and they develop dangerous blind spots. They think they are doing realistic drills, but the stuff they are not aware that they don't know is the thing that causes problems with reality based training.

It would make more sense, in my experience, to let the students practice being wolves with knives against the unarmed sheep for a while. Once they know how the wolf thinks, it is time to start learning how to deal with them.

Most knife arts instead start off with two dogs fighting to be alpha male.:shrug:
 

OULobo

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Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
I can only speak from my decades of experience of course, but so far I have not run across anyone who practices a knife centered art that could stand up unarmed to some of the nasty moves that are being taught in some corners of the world on using a knife to kill someone.

Again, this is just my experience after a few decades of a learning nasty stuff.

If you don't mind me asking, where did you pick up these moves?
 

OULobo

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Originally posted by Shadow Hunter
Ok,

It would make more sense, in my experience, to let the students practice being wolves with knives against the unarmed sheep for a while. Once they know how the wolf thinks, it is time to start learning how to deal with them.

Most knife arts instead start off with two dogs fighting to be alpha male.

I'm starting to see your point, but I think that what you are advocating is already being done in certain circles that are FMA influenced, if not based. In some of my training, albeit not FMA, we have done exactly what you just mentioned, we even call it wolf pack training. It is basically how to attack as a group with weapons against a single person or possibly two people. The focus is on the attackers, not the defenders. Some instructors will tell you that attacking a single target is dangerous if you are not coordinated with your fellow attackers. Sadly the assumption is that the defender is done no matter what.
 
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kenpo2dabone

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Shadow Hunter,

You seem to be very willing to kill anyone who threatens you. Correct me if I am wrong but say for instance you and I happen to strole into the same bar. You decide you don't like the way I am looking at your girl friend. You come up to me to confront me about it and I tell you to take a flying..."whatever" and swing at you. Lets even say I make good contact to your jaw. I am unarmed. You are saying that you would pull out a knife and kill me over that. Guess what, you are going to jail for the rest of your life or at least a very long time. The point is you have not only stopped my life but you have ruined yours. Not to mention if you have any conscience at all you have to deal with the moral dilemma that yoiu have put yourself in.

I would also be willing to bet that the people who train in knife arts probably carry one with them in a manner which leaves it accessible for them to use it. To assume otherwise will get you killed. I would say that this pretty much mutes your point of going against someone who trains with a knife and having them not pull it out to defend themselves against a knife wielding attacker.

Respectfully,

Mike Miller UKF
 
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Joe Talmadge

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It's fine to point out that dueling is not reality-based. On the other hand, a perusal through a newspaper for a few weeks should also indicate to you that an encounter with a trained FMAer is probably even lower probability and even less reality-based. I understand what you're saying about going up unarmed against an FMA-trained fighter, but reality is that if you end up in a confrontation that involves a knife, it will be against someone untrained (e.g., run of the mill thug or crackhead) or someone "trained" in prison knife techniques (admitedly effective but NOT the same as FMA). You want to maximize the realism, those are the techniques you should train against.

Joe
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
Shadow Hunter,

You seem to be very willing to kill anyone who threatens you.

Excuse me for cutting you off at this point, but where on earth did you get that idea? I feel like I am talking with someone from another planet.

Go take a look at the thread on killing in the general martial arts talk area. I think it may open your eyes a bit. If you feel a bit foolish, don't worry as I am very forgiving and will be ready to accept your apology.

I honestly do not know how you can get the cracked idea that I am very willing to kill.
 
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kenpo2dabone

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Maybe I miss interpreted but these were the clues...

>>>I do not mean to brag but, every single FMA or knife guru I know of would die if they did what they do unarmed against me with a knife.<<<

This very much sounds like you are willing to take the life of someone who is unarmed. I understand that you are simply using this as an example but would you really pull your knife out against someone who is not armed. I would very much like to hear your response to the rest of my previous post as well.

It really does seem like you are saying if you had a knife and the other guy doesn't you could kill him with your knife.

I do appoligize if I offended you but I was simply responding to words you wrote.

Sincerely,
Mike Miller UKF
 

lhommedieu

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Shadow Hunter,

You make the point that you can defeat the "typical" Filipino martial artist who practices "knife fighting." - if you had a knife and he doesn't. You argue that this kind of person has a "knife to knife" perspective is not used to dealing with an individual who, for lack of a better term, is used to "knifing" people, and state that your experience over the years has made you privy to this form understanding. Whoa! Stop the presses. 3000 years of martial arts heritage and Filipino martial artists haven't figured out how to knife an unarmed opponent!

What you are talking about is the way that some Filipino martial arts art taught to the masses, in commerical schools or seminars - and I agree (as, I am sure countless others do) that teaching other people how to be "knife fighters" is both stupid and criminal. However, as I said above, there are some very good teachers out there who are neither typical, no prone to brag about their prowess with a knife. I know one who survived a mugging in an elevator with a knife in his chest and a dead bad guy on the floor. I guarantee that he won't be showing up on the forum to start talking about his particular talents.

Taking your claims out of the equasion, I agree that a person armed with a knife has vast advantages over someone without one. I have argued on this forum, as well as others, that your chances of surviving an edged encounter (empty handed) against someone whose sole intent is to take your life are pretty slim. So what else is new? Hell, my sister could take out anyone she wanted to with a kitchen knife, given the proper motivation and an insane disregard for her own safety. What the "proper motivation" is, is anybody's guess, but it probably runs the gamut from sociopathy to defending the lives of your spouse or children.

Weapons are great equalizers, hence: "If I had a gun, and he didn't, and he's trained to be a gunfighter, then I could kill him easily if he didn't have a gun."

Time to move on...

Best,

Steve Lamade
 
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Shadow Hunter

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Originally posted by kenpo2dabone
It really does seem like you are saying if you had a knife and the other guy doesn't you could kill him with your knife.

Yes, but how the hell did you get the idea that because I am capable of killing someone I am somehow eager to do it?

And let me get to the crux of my point, I am not saying that I go around killing people over minor matters. But Alex Gong was just killed by some guy for a really stupid reason. Would you kill someone just to avoid trouble after hitting another car? I would not but obviously someone is willing to.

There are predetors out there, and they are not training like you do in your safe little dojo. Be afraid little sheep, be very afraid.
 

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