It doesn't work... Blog Post

[Gerry Seymour]

what you made up random number with out being asked a question, that impressive

well you may be confident, but in the absence of some unmade up quantities that just supposition, the people who train and escape may have escaped anyway, people with out training escape SO....

So just give up?

 

[Hanzou]

The only difference is sheer aggression. We can’t really account for that, but MMA outcomes seem to suggest the skills transfer.

Agreed, which is sadly why a lot of women don't stick with Bjj very long. Not only do they have to deal with big hairy sweaty men on top of them, but it forces them to fight harder than their male counterparts.

And yeah, MMA definitely shows that the skills transfer over. I just saw a vid of Garry Tonon doing a leg lock entry and submission in a MMA fight exactly like he did in BJJ training and videos. It was textbook level.

 

[jobo]

BJJ’s results are much easier to see than Aikido’s in most cases. There’s a difference between unsubstantiated and unquantified. You’ve confused those terms in this thread.

NO im really not,

one of the ways he could substantiate it is to provide quantification, there may be others, I can't think of any, but its his job to provide substance to his claims, not mine to second guess him

 

[jobo]

So just give up?

thats the second time youve asked me that.

its up to the people who participate if they should give up.

If the rational to continue is they think they can resist attacks then they need to ask them selves some hard questions about the feasibility of what they learn ever actually working

its the same fundemental issue with males, but even more polarised with small femails..

can the skills you learn over come a significant physical disadvantage, if your not at a physical disadvantage then you probably wont need the skills anyway. the fact you are better equipped to resist attack, which the claim being made, doesn't matter tuppence if you don't ''WIN''

byway of an illustrative anecdote, there a young lady at my group, who has the physical proportions of a large sized doll.

it doesn't matter what she trains, for how long, she will never ever fight off an average sized male, Ok she is an outlier, but there's an awful lot of people between her and an ability to defend themselves adequately .

the same of course goes for a lot of males studying ma, if they believe there skill levels will over come a significant physical disadvantage they are either exceptionally talented or delusional

 

[JP3]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the thrust of your post that if your art "doesn't work" (or if you believe that your art doesn't work) you're not doing something right? Essentially people who venture into a style, find something wrong with it, and begin to "bash it" are doing so because they simply didn't go deeper into their system of choice. I would counter that some of us have dug deeper into our previous systems and found rather massive glaring holes in the training methodologies being offered.

Which brings us back to the case of this young woman who was seeking a martial art that would protect her from sexual assault. Given your argument, her going into an Aikido dojo would be just fine because eventually she will be able to use her Aikido effectively. However, if we're being honest with ourselves, it could take that woman years if not longer to use Aikido even at a rudimentary level (if ever). She was deciding between Aikido and Bjj, and if those people were honest and serious in that forum, they would have unanimously told her to go to the Bjj school. Unfortunately in the world of martial arts, we try to be politically correct instead of being honest and serious.

A thought. "What if" the woman you mentioned, who had a perceived pressing need for actual/practical SD instruction got into the BJJ class and absolutely hated it? I could easily understand that, since the contact involved might get into her head, all that rolling around and grabbing and mashing and etc. So, she quits after a week and it did her no good.

Being an aikidoer (I love that made up word), I recognize that trying to turn it into something which you can really rely upon in SD situations is a long road. And it hurts (investing in loss, love that term too). So, if she was after becoming competent enough to at least defend against the larger & stronger opponent "in as short a span of time as possible," then BJJ seems to me to be a better fit than aikido.

Fastest yet might be to get training in CQB shooting, do someof those competitions, and have both your CCL (CHL?) and your 9mm ready to hand. "Quickest" solution to the problem she presented to the board, perhaps. Not my own solution, since guns scare the bejeezus out of me, but maybe hers?

 

[jobo]

Unsubstantiated would mean that I have no evidence to back up what I'm saying. Except I do have evidence. It simply isn't the evidence that YOU want because you know the specific "data" you want doesn't exist.



My original claim was the Bjj was better for self defense than Aikido. How is that a long way from that original claim?

and you expanded that to claim a smal woman could be demolishing big guys in an unspecified amount of time

but your having trouble separating your opinion from facts. its your opinion that SHE would be better doing BJJ, its my opinion that in the vast majority of cases they are both equally useless.

Youve introduced some outlier of female black belts, who can possibly make a reasonable attempt at defending themselves. but they are a minority and therefore not a reasonable indicator of its general application

 

[Hanzou]

and you expanded that to claim a smal woman could be demolishing big guys in an unspecified amount of time

Yeah, I never said that.

but your having trouble separating your opinion from facts. its your opinion that SHE would be better doing BJJ, its my opinion that in the vast majority of cases they are both equally useless.

I also never said that practicing Aikido would be "useless" for a woman seeking self defense.

Youve introduced some outlier of female black belts, who can possibly make a reasonable attempt at defending themselves. but they are a minority and therefore not a reasonable indicator of its general application

Doesn't that completely contradict your entire argument that training BJJ would be "useless" for female self defense?

 

[Hanzou]

A thought. "What if" the woman you mentioned, who had a perceived pressing need for actual/practical SD instruction got into the BJJ class and absolutely hated it? I could easily understand that, since the contact involved might get into her head, all that rolling around and grabbing and mashing and etc. So, she quits after a week and it did her no good.

Being an aikidoer (I love that made up word), I recognize that trying to turn it into something which you can really rely upon in SD situations is a long road. And it hurts (investing in loss, love that term too). So, if she was after becoming competent enough to at least defend against the larger & stronger opponent "in as short a span of time as possible," then BJJ seems to me to be a better fit than aikido.

Fastest yet might be to get training in CQB shooting, do someof those competitions, and have both your CCL (CHL?) and your 9mm ready to hand. "Quickest" solution to the problem she presented to the board, perhaps. Not my own solution, since guns scare the bejeezus out of me, but maybe hers?

No argument there. However, the woman was specifically trying to decide between. a Bjj or an Aikido school.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

NO im really not,

one of the ways he could substantiate it is to provide quantification, there may be others, I can't think of any, but its his job to provide substance to his claims, not mine to second guess him

There are many ways to substantiate claims that don't provide exact (or even numeric) quantification. You've been demanding quantification for a while, so if that's not what you think is necessary, why demand it?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

thats the second time youve asked me that.

its up to the people who participate if they should give up.

If the rational to continue is they think they can resist attacks then they need to ask them selves some hard questions about the feasibility of what they learn ever actually working

its the same fundemental issue with males, but even more polarised with small femails..

can the skills you learn over come a significant physical disadvantage, if your not at a physical disadvantage then you probably wont need the skills anyway. the fact you are better equipped to resist attack, which the claim being made, doesn't matter tuppence if you don't ''WIN''

byway of an illustrative anecdote, there a young lady at my group, who has the physical proportions of a large sized doll.

it doesn't matter what she trains, for how long, she will never ever fight off an average sized male, Ok she is an outlier, but there's an awful lot of people between her and an ability to defend themselves adequately .

the same of course goes for a lot of males studying ma, if they believe there skill levels will over come a significant physical disadvantage they are either exceptionally talented or delusional

Yeah, no. You're claiming to make a point, and your point appears to be that nothing will help. Hence my translation of your posts.

The fact is that it's possible to increase someone's chances in a number of ways. Most of those ways increase the chances incrementally. Whether that's worth the effort or not is up to the person, but you just keep dismissing the idea that incremental improvement is a benefit.

 

[Hanzou]

byway of an illustrative anecdote, there a young lady at my group, who has the physical proportions of a large sized doll.

it doesn't matter what she trains, for how long, she will never ever fight off an average sized male, Ok she is an outlier, but there's an awful lot of people between her and an ability to defend themselves adequately .

She'd be able to fight off an average sized male if she trained in Bjj.

 

[Martial D]

Why is it only ever people that practice 'display styles' that make posts like this?

Food for thought.

 

[Hanzou]

Why is it only ever people that practice 'display styles' that make posts like this?

Food for thought.

I have to ask, what is a "Display Style"?

 

[jobo]

Yeah, I never said that.



I also never said that practicing Aikido would be "useless" for a woman seeking self defense.



Doesn't that completely contradict your entire argument that training BJJ would be "useless" for female self defense?

ok

Yeah, no. You're claiming to make a point, and your point appears to be that nothing will help. Hence my translation of your posts.

The fact is that it's possible to increase someone's chances in a number of ways. Most of those ways increase the chances incrementally. Whether that's worth the effort or not is up to the person, but you just keep dismissing the idea that incremental improvement is a benefit.

Yeah, no. You're claiming to make a point, and your point appears to be that nothing will help. Hence my translation of your posts.

The fact is that it's possible to increase someone's chances in a number of ways. Most of those ways increase the chances incrementally. Whether that's worth the effort or not is up to the person, but you just keep dismissing the idea that incremental improvement is a benefit.

well no, exercise has benefits, so to say there no benefits would be incorrect, the question then is BJJ or what ever, more beneficial than netball or dancing

in the context of the discussion at hand, small female / sexual assault, its only beneficial if those increments add up to a point where the attack can be repulsed. if that isn't achieved then NO, no benefit

 

[jobo]

Why is it only ever people that practice 'display styles' that make posts like this?

Food for thought.

if your talking about me ? i don't do a display style

 

[Martial D]

I have to ask, what is a "Display Style"?

Ehh.

A style that focuses more on perfecting their dance routine and are judged on aesthetics rather than functional skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why is it only ever people that practice 'display styles' that make posts like this?

Food for thought.

Posts like what?

 

[Hanzou]

Posts like what?

I thought he was talking about the OP.

 

[Martial D]

Posts like what?

Like the OP.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Like the OP.

JKD is a display style, Police/Military Sanda (sanshou) is a display style. I did those too. Been in multiple styles and been MA likely longer than you've been on the planet sonny. You might want to try and actually READ the blog post without the attitude and you might learn something.

You know, I'm done.....had enough of all of this....
Congratulations you win

And you are now an addition to my ignore list too.