It doesn't work... Blog Post

[JP3]

or my own experience that i outlined in one thread or another that lau gar kung fu was ''deadly'' for sd, which was much mocked my martial D. and it was when i did it, the fitness training was brutal, the free fighting at the end even more brutal, take those away and maybe its not so deadly after all

I'd offer that to take those away from the art... and it is no longer the art. For me, it's a package thing, the entire, complete package of what is being trained. We're back to labels again.

 

[drop bear]

I'd offer that to take those away from the art... and it is no longer the art. For me, it's a package thing, the entire, complete package of what is being trained. We're back to labels again.

There are building blocks that will make a martial arts work.

Like the concept that to swim you need to spend time in the water. To do martial arts you need grueling physical training to perform a grueling physical activity.

Stylistically though a system only occurs in the mind of the practitioner. There is no defining point where something is or isn't part of a system.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not if you wanted to create a manageable self defense method.

Instead you would create scenario victories. So say a person grabs you. Then you would win if you release that grab. Which would bring you to a new scenario that you would try to win that.

Keep winning those scenarios and you have a good chance of winning the situation.

But it means you can create this flexible method that will allow you to adapt to an uncertain situation.

Then it is a case of just setting objectives rather than relying on fixed objectives.

So instead of saying. "there a strong case that the longer it goes on, the more chance there is of his physical advantages paying off,"

You could either set an objective to scramble and escape or Mabye to grind and stall until help arrives. And have the tools to achieve either outcome.

Hmm. Scenario training. Where has that come up before in discussions????

 

[drop bear]

Hmm. Scenario training. Where has that come up before in discussions????

Normally as an alternative to sparring by martial artists who think that theater sports is combat training.

Scenario training in this case would be resisted drills. So I put you on a wall and then try to take you down. You try to escape the wall and gain an advantageous position.

We isolate a position and fight for a better one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Normally as an alternative to sparring by martial artists who think that theater sports is combat training.

Scenario training in this case would be resisted drills. So I put you on a wall and then try to take you down. You try to escape the wall and gain an advantageous position.

We isolate a position and fight for a better one.

Yeah. My point is that you, in the past, have simply assumed from the term "scenario training" that it wasn't anything useful. We had a long discussion in a thread a couple of years ago with just that issue. What you're describing is one of the better types of drills that fall under "scenario training". You just assumed that's not what I meant, because you hear the term "Aikido" and lose all ability to listen.

 

[dvcochran]

Going to try something here. I'll assume you are correct, and no matter how skilled she gets at fighting, she will have a disadvantage against someone stronger without experience. I don't think that's the case, but i'll go with it.

So let's take three instances.

Instance A: She has no experience whatsoever, in fighting or martial arts, weighs 130 and is attacked by a guy weighing around 200. She probably has about a 1% chance (maybe less) of winning, considering she doesn't know how to react and the guy was prepared. so 99% chance she gets mugged/beat up/raped/killed/kidnapped/whatever.

Instance B: She has no experience whatsoever, in fighting or martial arts, but does do aerobics and/or a martial art at a place that does no practical application. She weighs 130 and is attacked by a guy weighing around 200. She probably has about the same 1% (or less) chance of winning, considering she still doesn't know how to react and the guy was prepared. so 99% chance she gets mugged/beat up/raped/killed/kidnapped/whatever.

Instance C: same lady now has about 10 years of experience in BJJ (likely crosstrained some striking at some point from my experience with BJJers, but that's irrelevant). She still weighs 130, and is attacked by the same guy weighing around 200. She still has a disadvantage, but knows something that she can do to protect herself. Now she has a 5% chance of reacting and using her skills to sub the guy and escape, 95% chance of all trhat other stuff. I feel like I'm lowballing her chances, but that's also irrelevant. Even if it went to a 2% chance it would be irrelevant.

In the third instance, the person has a better chance of winning/surviving/whatever, even if it is still extremely low. So that increased chance is the benefit.

I cannot agree with the percentages for a plethora of reasons, but I agree with the order or instances.
I still think it is a question with near infinite answers.
A Big variable that has rolled around in my mind since the OP reminds me of the Rocky quote that goes something like "it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward". If the 130lb girl has a chance to get/keep her wits and is a fighter, she has a chance. If 200lb guy unsuspectingly hammers her, she does not have a very good chance at all.

 

[dvcochran]

The only difference is sheer aggression. We can’t really account for that, but MMA outcomes seem to suggest the skills transfer.

I like that description. I might say controlled aggression. A more elegant expression than saying old fashioned "want to".

 

[dvcochran]

It’s also For entertainment. That’s why I don’t complain when Jobo goes off on one of his cantankerous tirades. I just make some popcorn or grab some chips. Besides he usually is at least half right, which makes the discussion interesting.

I admit to being mildly guilty of that at times. You are correct that occasionally, he will make a very cogent remark.
I have blocked a couple of people and the forum has been a much more enjoyable place.

 

[dvcochran]

My wife trained BJJ, she was 126 pounds.
Fortunately nobody told her she couldn’t beat men twice her size.

True, she’s an evil, aggressive woman, but still.

That SO makes a point I have been trying to put in to words.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah. My point is that you, in the past, have simply assumed from the term "scenario training" that it wasn't anything useful. We had a long discussion in a thread a couple of years ago with just that issue. What you're describing is one of the better types of drills that fall under "scenario training". You just assumed that's not what I meant, because you hear the term "Aikido" and lose all ability to listen.

Show me where I said that or even show me a video of your scenario training.

You keep these things purposely vague

 

[dvcochran]

If aggression is part of training then why can't we account for it?

Back in my competition days I had a problem with aggression in that I did not call on it soon enough sometimes. Too often I would have to let myself get banged on a bit before my engine really got started.
Before starting MA's I had a problem controlling it on the top end but got pretty good control of it.
It is a powerful ally and can be a vengeful enemy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I cannot agree with the percentages for a plethora of reasons, but I agree with the order or instances.
I still think it is a question with near infinite answers.
A Big variable that has rolled around in my mind since the OP reminds me of the Rocky quote that goes something like "it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward". If the 130lb girl has a chance to get/keep her wits and is a fighter, she has a chance. If 200lb guy unsuspectingly hammers her, she does not have a very good chance at all.

Just a clarification, the percentages were made up for the purpose of explaining the concept. I’ve no idea what the actual percentages are.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like that description. I might say controlled aggression. A more elegant expression than saying old fashioned "want to".

My point was about the sheer aggression of the attacker, who is likely not controlled. We see more controlled aggression in things like MMA.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Show me where I said that or even show me a video of your scenario training.

You keep these things purposely vague

Actually, I'm quite happy to explain what I mean. You just weren't interested in listening at the time. I don't think I have the hour or so it would take to find the argument in question, though.

As for video, I've never gotten around to getting any (of any of my training, ever), so don't have any to share. I could take some, but I'm only teaching relative beginners currently, so it wouldn't show what I'm talking about.

When I use the term "scenario training", it simply refers to anything where you set up a scenario. This might restrict options for the attacker ("you want to drag them over to there"), or restrict the options for the defender ("you have an injured mate, and don't want to just run off"), or just set up a situation ("these pads represent tables and chairs"). Basically, it's just a different kind of drill. If I was training MMA, one example might be "you're up against the fence and tired".

 

[jobo]

My point was about the sheer aggression of the attacker, who is likely not controlled. We see more controlled aggression in things like MMA.

i think that's a false premise, its not aggression that isn't controlled, its adrenalin that not controlled

if that's a good or a bad thing is rather dependent on circumstances, some times you can get by with gross motor skills and the added benefit of the adrenal rush is a boon

its a real problem if your trying to play pool and a great benefit if your trying to move something very heavy

 

[drop bear]

Actually, I'm quite happy to explain what I mean. You just weren't interested in listening at the time. I don't think I have the hour or so it would take to find the argument in question, though.

As for video, I've never gotten around to getting any (of any of my training, ever), so don't have any to share. I could take some, but I'm only teaching relative beginners currently, so it wouldn't show what I'm talking about.

When I use the term "scenario training", it simply refers to anything where you set up a scenario. This might restrict options for the attacker ("you want to drag them over to there"), or restrict the options for the defender ("you have an injured mate, and don't want to just run off"), or just set up a situation ("these pads represent tables and chairs"). Basically, it's just a different kind of drill. If I was training MMA, one example might be "you're up against the fence and tired".

Ok so no video and no example of what I said.

Just a baseless accusation.

If we both say do sparring we very easily could not be doing the same thing. You could be doing something dumb with crap guys who can't fight.

Same with scenarios. You could be setting up scenarios that are not based on your experience of how those scenarios really play out.

Now when you say Aikido and basically every video of aikido that is available is someone doing something dumb with crap guys who can't fight. I lean towards the evidence I can see.

Because that is all I have.

Aikido self defense scenario.

 

[drop bear]

Mma scenarios.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok so no video and no example of what I said.

Just a baseless accusation.

If we both say do sparring we very easily could not be doing the same thing. You could be doing something dumb with crap guys who can't fight.

Same with scenarios. You could be setting up scenarios that are not based on your experience of how those scenarios really play out.

Now when you say Aikido and basically every video of aikido that is available is someone doing something dumb with crap guys who can't fight. I lean towards the evidence I can see.

Because that is all I have.

Aikido self defense scenario.

My point is that you have repeatedly made claims of what my training is like. I'm okay with you starting from the evidence you have. But when you try to tell me my training doesn't include things because you've not seen evidence of them, that's just unobjective bias. If you said, "Okay, if you do ___, then that's good. But I have a hard time believing it, because I think everyone who trains Aikido is the same," at least then you'd be honest about your bias.

And remember that I train "Aikido" the group of arts (my primary art is Nihon Goshin Aikido), not "Aikido" the art founded by Ueshiba. The difference is significant in most cases. Some of the same issues exist between the two groups, but few of the videos you find will be of NGA. It'd be like me pointing at videos of a college wrestling class and saying, "you do ground stuff, and this is what ground stuff is like". I might hit some good points, but I'd miss on some important stuff, because BJJ isn't the same as wrestling.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Mma scenarios.

My internet's running too slow to watch them. I'll try again in the morning if I have a chance before I get on the road.

To clarify what I mean about scenarios...they run a wide range. Some are pretty simple: "Dude has a knife/stick/chair, and you have defend yourself." Some are more specific, like some of the "BJJ lab" stuff Tony has done (though he's doing a better job of them, as he gets to a one-on-one with as close to the real environment as possible, and in the dojo we're usually making do with what is handy). Sometimes they are soft and technical (about the pressure of a relative beginner doing slow rolling), and sometimes they're pretty energetic. Rarely are they full resistance, because I want them to stay "in the scenario" (rather than using their favorite technique to win), but they always have some level of resistance.

I don't think they have solid boundaries. They're drills. As I think about it, most drills are some sort of "scenario", except for live sparring.

 

[drop bear]

My point is that you have repeatedly made claims of what my training is like

Ok where have I done that?

I think you are making the claims.