It doesn't work... Blog Post

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Xue Sheng, Nov 22, 2019.

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  1. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    if you add strength it is always going to even the odds against a stronger opponent always

    all the arts are based on using technique t increase effective strength, all of them run in to trouble if the guy is significantly stronger than you. Including BJJ. The skill levels require to overcome a significant strength disadvantage exist,,, but not in the vast majority of people who practise an art.

    To tell people that any art will reduce their risk of sexual assault with out explain the shortcomings is misleading
     
  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i know exactly what your talking about, your stuck in some martial arts fantasy that being small and weak is an advantage.

    theres no reason at all the a big strong person cant develop the same skill levers as a small weak person, in which case they always have the advantage
     
  3. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yeah, you clearly don't.

    Actually there's plenty of reasons, especially when it comes to grappling. Size and weight always matters, and you can come to rely on that even if you dont realize it. For example, a big person on top simply doesn't have to work as hard to maintain that position as a smaller person. What's more, the bigger person can even get used to resting in that position because they dont need to exert energy to maintain, gravity does the job for them.

    The problem with this is what happens when (as in my case) you lose weight or you deal with someone even bigger than you? That can cause you to have to relearn how to do fundamental positions that you've thought you mastered. Again, the smaller person dealt with this from day one, so they're better off than the bigger person.

    Now the part wher you seem to be getting confused is me saying the person is "better off". I'm not negating the size and strength advantage, nor am I saying that a bigger person can't obtain a high level of skill. What I'm saying is that BECAUSE of the advantage that size and strength gives to a practitioner, you can easily fall into bad habits. A smaller person will never fall into those habits because they're working from a disadvantage from the start.

    If you dont understand that, I really can't help you further.
     
  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    so smaller people don't fall into bad habits, and big people do So why isnt the heavy weight champ 150 lbs ?

    lots of people don't train properly, that doesn't at all support your smaller and weaker is better philosophy

    if being big isnt an advantage why did loosing weight make you rubbish, the only answer can be that the instruction at your school is poor or you hadnt been applying yourself
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Again, if you're smaller and not using proper technique in Bjj, you're not escaping, you're not tapping anyone, your guard is getting smashed, etc. Bigger people can simply afford to be a bit more sloppy and inefficient.

    This just shows that you're not paying attention. Nowhere did I say that being bigger isn't an advantage. I'm saying that having that advantage can be a detriment to your training.
     
  6. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    //// so having an advantage is detrimental ?

    that seem a logical statment ???????????

    So back to the case in point, a large male attacker on a small woman has
    a) a significant advantage
    b) a significant disadvantage

    it has to be one or the other

    when you decided we can exsplore the point, at the moment your just flip flopping in and out of fantasy land
     
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    And correct me if I'm wrong, I have asked you the same question in 2 posts and you have yet to answer.....interesting...but then if memory serves, that was your MO

    And actually that is a scenario you added to make an argument against something that was not being said. You do not understand the point, that's fine, you want to argue that's ok too, but you will not be arguing with me. You are missing the point of the blog completely so you can style bash and argue, that is your only reason for being here. And you are fitting the last paragraph of the blog post rather well....respond if you want, argue if you like, I will not be responding to you, I mistook you for another poster and could not understand why you were on ignore since the poster I was thinking about will argue, but also discuss and is rather reasonable and knowledgeable..... I have no idea what MT alerted me of your response in the first place..... but now I remember and I know who you are and why you were on my ignore, my mistake for taking you off... so back on you go...and you are a member of an elite group of 3 on the list.... congratulations....have a nice day
     
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  8. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yeah, I wasn't talking about that at all. I was talking about people taking Bjj or some other form of submission grappling. Obviously the large male attacker has a significant advantage over a small woman. MY point was that in training a martial art like Bjj, a dedicated smaller person is better off than a dedicated larger person because that smaller person has to rely almost completely on technical skill.

    What?
     
  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Uh, I answered it back in post #10.
     
  10. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    My impression is that he was talking about people who become disillusioned in a style and believe that the style in question "doesn't work". Obviously there's many ways a style can "work", but I think we enter questionable territory when we pretend that everything is equal and that the only thing missing is some exploration. Some systems simply have bad training methodologies that are further watered down by American consumerism and entitlement culture. Pretending that everything is equal leads to situations like the one I described where a woman searching for self defense advice ends up being utterly confused and gets generally bad advice when the answer is fairly obvious.
     
  11. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I highly highly doubt this. Ive seen beginner students tap to knee on belly or too much pressure before. I've seen beginners tap to a choke that wasnt locked in/wouldn't have worked, but caused enough pain they thought it would.

    And I've also seen, at multiple dojos, in both sambo and bjj, tap to heel hooks/ankle locks before their in place, because they either get scared of ankle locks, or they don't think the person doing them is going slow enough.
     
  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    how can they be BETTER off, when the dedicated larger person will beat off more attackers than the dedicated smaller person

    or is your point that 150lb woman will kick more **** than a similarly dedicated 250lb male

    in the context of our discussion on sexual assault against women your point is just bogus
     
  13. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Fair point. I've definitely tapped to leg lock attempts before they were fully locked in because the damage to my knee or ankle wasn't worth me fighting against it. I've also tapped to painful chokeholds than chokeholds that were going to knock me out.

    My point was that I've never seen a person tap just for the heck of it.
     
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  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I've already discussed this multiple times.

    Wow.

    That's not even close to my point at all.

    I'm not surprised that this is your view given your complete inability to grasp the point.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2019
  15. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Just to clarify, reading over my post it kind of sounded like a dig at people who tap early. It wasnt-id much rather tap to a weird heel hook thats half in then mess up my foot. I've also tapped to neck cranks on days where my back/neck is bothering me more than normal.

    The point that I'm making, though, is even if there's a reason for the tap, the person who is doing it doesn't always know that (and some don't appreciate it/believe it if you tell them). So let's say i go around doing ankle locks, and that becomes my specialty. Cause in my dojo everyone taps rather than risk their ankle. Which is fine. But now I've never actually set it, and I might be messing something up. So I get in a fight somewhere and I go for my ankle lock. Rather than something else that could have worked better had I not been awesome in ankle locks. And all of a sudden it doesn't work, and I'm on the floor trying to do something while the guy turns around and chokes me out or knocks me out ir whatever before I realize what the hell just happened.

    And that sounds extreme, but considering how people react to ankle locks, I could totally see this happening. I've seen plenty of people who think they can do ankle locks that, when told to do it slowly aren't able to get it. And this is in a fairly objectively good style, where there's an assumption that everything is pressure tested.
     
  16. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I remembered while writing this, but I actually went to a sort of "extracurricular" class a couple months ago where we spent a little over an hour just doing leg/ankle/heel stuff because so many people seem to neglect them in BJJ (possibly because of the fear mentioned above). I still suck at them.
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    your not making A point, your making multiple contradictory points

    Try and compose your thoughts before posting

    so tell me again, how this small woman will resist attacks because she is small and weak and how if she was stronger it would be a huge disadvantage to her
     
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I can't really knock anyone choosing to tap early to leglocks. You are correct that the symptom of tapping early to avoid joint damage to the leg can lead to people not actually being able to perform the technique correctly. However, that tends to be an issue isolated to leglocks. While I'm guilty of tapping early to leglocks, I dont with shoulder, arm, and wrist locks. I also don't tap early for chokes. In fact, it could be argued that i dont tap soon enough.
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    For the last time; Relying on skill and technique is better than relying on size and strength.
     
  20. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You don't, but some people do. I don't think I've seen it happen with upper body locks, but have seen people who tap early for chokes, when they don't need to.

    Also, when I trained in sambo, they spent more time learning how to control leg locks to make them both accurate and safe then in BJJ. I don't know if that's isolated to the sambo school that I went to, but i've been to probably around 4 BJJ schools and none of them had that much focus on teaching leg locks safely. As a result they're either not done much, or done incorrectly.123
     
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