It doesn't work... Blog Post

[jobo]

BJJ does as good a job as I've seen of working around the size/strength disadvantage. Just adding strength isn't much help unless it actually evens the odds or gives you a strength advantage.

if you add strength it is always going to even the odds against a stronger opponent always

all the arts are based on using technique t increase effective strength, all of them run in to trouble if the guy is significantly stronger than you. Including BJJ. The skill levels require to overcome a significant strength disadvantage exist,,, but not in the vast majority of people who practise an art.

To tell people that any art will reduce their risk of sexual assault with out explain the shortcomings is misleading

 

[jobo]

Frankly even getting to Blue Belt in BJJ would be highly beneficial for a woman seeking self defense.



That 40lbs I lost included muscle, not just fat.



You dont seem to understand what I'm talking about here so I think it's best that we leave it at that.

i know exactly what your talking about, your stuck in some martial arts fantasy that being small and weak is an advantage.

theres no reason at all the a big strong person cant develop the same skill levers as a small weak person, in which case they always have the advantage

 

[Hanzou]

i know exactly what your talking about, your stuck in some martial arts fantasy that being small and weak is an advantage.

Yeah, you clearly don't.

theres no reason at all the a big strong person cant develop the same skill levers as a small weak person, in which case they always have the advantage

Actually there's plenty of reasons, especially when it comes to grappling. Size and weight always matters, and you can come to rely on that even if you dont realize it. For example, a big person on top simply doesn't have to work as hard to maintain that position as a smaller person. What's more, the bigger person can even get used to resting in that position because they dont need to exert energy to maintain, gravity does the job for them.

The problem with this is what happens when (as in my case) you lose weight or you deal with someone even bigger than you? That can cause you to have to relearn how to do fundamental positions that you've thought you mastered. Again, the smaller person dealt with this from day one, so they're better off than the bigger person.

Now the part wher you seem to be getting confused is me saying the person is "better off". I'm not negating the size and strength advantage, nor am I saying that a bigger person can't obtain a high level of skill. What I'm saying is that BECAUSE of the advantage that size and strength gives to a practitioner, you can easily fall into bad habits. A smaller person will never fall into those habits because they're working from a disadvantage from the start.

If you dont understand that, I really can't help you further.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, you clearly don't.



Actually there's plenty of reasons, especially when it comes to grappling. Size and weight always matters, and you can come to rely on that even if you dont realize it. For example, a big person on top simply doesn't have to work as hard to maintain that position as a smaller person. What's more, the bigger person can even get used to resting in that position because they dont need to exert energy to maintain, gravity does the job for them.

The problem with this is what happens when (as in my case) you lose weight or you deal with someone even bigger than you? That can cause you to have to relearn how to do fundamental positions that you've thought you mastered. Again, the smaller person dealt with this from day one, so they're better off than the bigger person.

Now the part wher you seem to be getting confused is me saying the person is "better off". I'm not negating the size and strength advantage, nor am I saying that a bigger person can't obtain a high level of skill. What I'm saying is that BECAUSE of the advantage that size and strength gives to a practitioner, you can easily fall into bad habits. A smaller person will never fall into those habits because they're working from a disadvantage from the start.

If you dont understand that, I really can't help you further.

so smaller people don't fall into bad habits, and big people do So why isnt the heavy weight champ 150 lbs ?

lots of people don't train properly, that doesn't at all support your smaller and weaker is better philosophy

if being big isnt an advantage why did loosing weight make you rubbish, the only answer can be that the instruction at your school is poor or you hadnt been applying yourself

 

[Hanzou]

so smaller people don't fall into bad habits, and big people do So why isnt the heavy weight champ 150 lbs ?

lots of people don't train properly, that doesn't at all support your smaller and weaker is better philosophy

Again, if you're smaller and not using proper technique in Bjj, you're not escaping, you're not tapping anyone, your guard is getting smashed, etc. Bigger people can simply afford to be a bit more sloppy and inefficient.

if being big isnt an advantage why did loosing weight make you rubbish, the only answer can be that the instruction at your school is poor or you hadnt been applying yourself

This just shows that you're not paying attention. Nowhere did I say that being bigger isn't an advantage. I'm saying that having that advantage can be a detriment to your training.

 

[jobo]

Again, if you're smaller and not using proper technique in Bjj, you're not escaping, you're not tapping anyone, your guard is getting smashed, etc. Bigger people can simply afford to be a bit more sloppy and inefficient.



This just shows that you're not paying attention. Nowhere did I say that being bigger isn't an advantage. I'm saying that having that advantage can be a detriment to your training.

//// so having an advantage is detrimental ?

that seem a logical statment ???????????

So back to the case in point, a large male attacker on a small woman has
a) a significant advantage
b) a significant disadvantage

it has to be one or the other

when you decided we can exsplore the point, at the moment your just flip flopping in and out of fantasy land

 

[Xue Sheng]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the thrust of your post that if your art "doesn't work" (or if you believe that your art doesn't work) you're not doing something right? Essentially people who venture into a style, find something wrong with it, and begin to "bash it" are doing so because they simply didn't go deeper into their system of choice. I would counter that some of us have dug deeper into our previous systems and found rather massive glaring holes in the training methodologies being offered.

Which brings us back to the case of this young woman who was seeking a martial art that would protect her from sexual assault. Given your argument, her going into an Aikido dojo would be just fine because eventually she will be able to use her Aikido effectively. However, if we're being honest with ourselves, it could take that woman years if not longer to use Aikido even at a rudimentary level (if ever). She was deciding between Aikido and Bjj, and if those people were honest and serious in that forum, they would have unanimously told her to go to the Bjj school. Unfortunately in the world of martial arts, we try to be politically correct instead of being honest and serious.

And correct me if I'm wrong, I have asked you the same question in 2 posts and you have yet to answer.....interesting...but then if memory serves, that was your MO

And actually that is a scenario you added to make an argument against something that was not being said. You do not understand the point, that's fine, you want to argue that's ok too, but you will not be arguing with me. You are missing the point of the blog completely so you can style bash and argue, that is your only reason for being here. And you are fitting the last paragraph of the blog post rather well....respond if you want, argue if you like, I will not be responding to you, I mistook you for another poster and could not understand why you were on ignore since the poster I was thinking about will argue, but also discuss and is rather reasonable and knowledgeable..... I have no idea what MT alerted me of your response in the first place..... but now I remember and I know who you are and why you were on my ignore, my mistake for taking you off... so back on you go...and you are a member of an elite group of 3 on the list.... congratulations....have a nice day

 

[Hanzou]

//// so having an advantage is detrimental ?

that seem a logical statment ???????????

So back to the case in point, a large male attacker on a small woman has
a) a significant advantage
b) a significant disadvantage

it has to be one or the other

Yeah, I wasn't talking about that at all. I was talking about people taking Bjj or some other form of submission grappling. Obviously the large male attacker has a significant advantage over a small woman. MY point was that in training a martial art like Bjj, a dedicated smaller person is better off than a dedicated larger person because that smaller person has to rely almost completely on technical skill.

when you decided we can exsplore the point, at the moment your just flip flopping in and out of fantasy land

What?

 

[Hanzou]

And correct me if I'm wrong, I have asked you the same question in 2 posts and you have yet to answer.....interesting...but then if memory serves, that was your MO

Uh, I answered it back in post #10.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought the thrust of his post was that you need to put in the time working out with folks outside your dojo and outside your art. Then you find out what works, when, and (eventually) why.

My impression is that he was talking about people who become disillusioned in a style and believe that the style in question "doesn't work". Obviously there's many ways a style can "work", but I think we enter questionable territory when we pretend that everything is equal and that the only thing missing is some exploration. Some systems simply have bad training methodologies that are further watered down by American consumerism and entitlement culture. Pretending that everything is equal leads to situations like the one I described where a woman searching for self defense advice ends up being utterly confused and gets generally bad advice when the answer is fairly obvious.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

BTW, I have yet to see anyone tap when a choke or a lock is not firmly in place.

I highly highly doubt this. Ive seen beginner students tap to knee on belly or too much pressure before. I've seen beginners tap to a choke that wasnt locked in/wouldn't have worked, but caused enough pain they thought it would.

And I've also seen, at multiple dojos, in both sambo and bjj, tap to heel hooks/ankle locks before their in place, because they either get scared of ankle locks, or they don't think the person doing them is going slow enough.

 

[jobo]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about that at all. I was talking about people taking Bjj or some other form of submission grappling. Obviously the large male attacker has a significant advantage over a small woman. MY point was that in training a martial art like Bjj, a dedicated smaller person is better off than a dedicated larger person because that smaller person has to rely almost completely on technical skill.



What?

how can they be BETTER off, when the dedicated larger person will beat off more attackers than the dedicated smaller person

or is your point that 150lb woman will kick more **** than a similarly dedicated 250lb male

in the context of our discussion on sexual assault against women your point is just bogus

 

[Hanzou]

I highly highly doubt this. Ive seen beginner students tap to knee on belly or too much pressure before. I've seen beginners tap to a choke that wasnt locked in/wouldn't have worked, but caused enough pain they thought it would.

And I've also seen, at multiple dojos, in both sambo and bjj, tap to heel hooks/ankle locks before their in place, because they either get scared of ankle locks, or they don't think the person doing them is going slow enough.

Fair point. I've definitely tapped to leg lock attempts before they were fully locked in because the damage to my knee or ankle wasn't worth me fighting against it. I've also tapped to painful chokeholds than chokeholds that were going to knock me out.

My point was that I've never seen a person tap just for the heck of it.

 

[Hanzou]

how can they be BETTER off, when the dedicated larger person will beat off more attackers than the dedicated smaller person

I've already discussed this multiple times.

or is your point that 150lb woman will kick more **** than a similarly dedicated 250lb male

Wow.

That's not even close to my point at all.

in the context of our discussion on sexual assault against women your point is just bogus

I'm not surprised that this is your view given your complete inability to grasp the point.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Fair point. I've definitely tapped to leg lock attempts before they were fully locked in because the damage to my knee or ankle wasn't worth me fighting against it. I've also tapped to painful chokeholds than chokeholds that were going to knock me out.

My point was that I've never seen a person tap just for the heck of it.

Just to clarify, reading over my post it kind of sounded like a dig at people who tap early. It wasnt-id much rather tap to a weird heel hook thats half in then mess up my foot. I've also tapped to neck cranks on days where my back/neck is bothering me more than normal.

The point that I'm making, though, is even if there's a reason for the tap, the person who is doing it doesn't always know that (and some don't appreciate it/believe it if you tell them). So let's say i go around doing ankle locks, and that becomes my specialty. Cause in my dojo everyone taps rather than risk their ankle. Which is fine. But now I've never actually set it, and I might be messing something up. So I get in a fight somewhere and I go for my ankle lock. Rather than something else that could have worked better had I not been awesome in ankle locks. And all of a sudden it doesn't work, and I'm on the floor trying to do something while the guy turns around and chokes me out or knocks me out ir whatever before I realize what the hell just happened.

And that sounds extreme, but considering how people react to ankle locks, I could totally see this happening. I've seen plenty of people who think they can do ankle locks that, when told to do it slowly aren't able to get it. And this is in a fairly objectively good style, where there's an assumption that everything is pressure tested.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Just to clarify, reading over my post it kind of sounded like a dig at people who tap early. It wasnt-id much rather tap to a weird heel hook thats half in then mess up my foot. I've also tapped to neck cranks on days where my back/neck is bothering me more than normal.

The point that I'm making, though, is even if there's a reason for the tap, the person who is doing it doesn't always know that (and some don't appreciate it/believe it if you tell them). So let's say i go around doing ankle locks, and that becomes my specialty. Cause in my dojo everyone taps rather than risk their ankle. Which is fine. But now I've never actually set it, and I might be messing something up. So I get in a fight somewhere and I go for my ankle lock. Rather than something else that could have worked better had I not been awesome in ankle locks. And all of a sudden it doesn't work, and I'm on the floor trying to do something while the guy turns around and chokes me out or knocks me out ir whatever before I realize what the hell just happened.

And that sounds extreme, but considering how people react to ankle locks, I could totally see this happening. I've seen plenty of people who think they can do ankle locks that, when told to do it slowly aren't able to get it. And this is in a fairly objectively good style, where there's an assumption that everything is pressure tested.

I remembered while writing this, but I actually went to a sort of "extracurricular" class a couple months ago where we spent a little over an hour just doing leg/ankle/heel stuff because so many people seem to neglect them in BJJ (possibly because of the fear mentioned above). I still suck at them.

 

[jobo]

I've already discussed this multiple times.



Wow.

That's not even close to my point at all.



I'm not surprised that this is your view given your complete inability to grasp the point.

your not making A point, your making multiple contradictory points

Try and compose your thoughts before posting

so tell me again, how this small woman will resist attacks because she is small and weak and how if she was stronger it would be a huge disadvantage to her

 

[Hanzou]

I remembered while writing this, but I actually went to a sort of "extracurricular" class a couple months ago where we spent a little over an hour just doing leg/ankle/heel stuff because so many people seem to neglect them in BJJ (possibly because of the fear mentioned above). I still suck at them.

I can't really knock anyone choosing to tap early to leglocks. You are correct that the symptom of tapping early to avoid joint damage to the leg can lead to people not actually being able to perform the technique correctly. However, that tends to be an issue isolated to leglocks. While I'm guilty of tapping early to leglocks, I dont with shoulder, arm, and wrist locks. I also don't tap early for chokes. In fact, it could be argued that i dont tap soon enough.

 

[Hanzou]

so tell me again, how this small woman will resist attacks because she is small and weak and how if she was stronger it would be a huge disadvantage to her

For the last time; Relying on skill and technique is better than relying on size and strength.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I can't really knock anyone choosing to tap early to leglocks. You are correct that the symptom of tapping early to avoid joint damage to the leg can lead to people not actually being able to perform the technique correctly. However, that tends to be an issue isolated to leglocks. While I'm guilty of tapping early to leglocks, I dont with shoulder, arm, and wrist locks. I also don't tap early for chokes. In fact, it could be argued that i dont tap soon enough.

You don't, but some people do. I don't think I've seen it happen with upper body locks, but have seen people who tap early for chokes, when they don't need to.

Also, when I trained in sambo, they spent more time learning how to control leg locks to make them both accurate and safe then in BJJ. I don't know if that's isolated to the sambo school that I went to, but i've been to probably around 4 BJJ schools and none of them had that much focus on teaching leg locks safely. As a result they're either not done much, or done incorrectly.