How to toughen up?

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

HAPPENS ALL THE TIME

lets examine that claim then

tell me all about ALL these people who have not previously been hit who flinched with you as a witness, don't forget to tell me how you establish they had never previously been hit

It's tough to examine that claim without stating names. I can tell you that my fiancee had that issue and I'm fairly certain she was never hit, based on her report and her families reports, and my own observations. Two of my roomates who I trained, the same-they and their families denied ever engaging in corporal punishment, all lovely people whom I believe, and they denied ever being in a fight. Flinched when I started teaching them martial arts. People at dojos that I've trained in had flinching reaction, despite their own reports of not being hit and/or in a fight, although I can't give a number and that's obviously less reliable since I don't have any collateral for that..but I have no reason to disbelieve them.

I had my own flinching problem which got solved by fighting more as well.

i didn't say he had been abused, i said he had previously been hit and your advice was to carry on being hit as if will magically cure the problem

Sorry, that's my own assumption that he had been abused. For clarification, physical child abuse is defined as "Physical child abuse is physical injury inflicted upon the child with cruel and/or malicious intent. Physical abuse can be the result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, burning, shaking, or otherwise harming a child physically.", according to medicine.net, which I feel can be transferred to animals as a good definition for physical animal abuse. I personally would add in something about a position of power for the abuse if I were to generalize that statement (a 3 year old could hit a 10 year old meaning to hurt him, but I wouldn't consider that abuse for instance).

So I made an assumption that a dog that reacted to any hand coming near him as a possible hit and at least sometimes bit that hand had been physically injured with cruel/malicious intent. That intent may have not been there I suppose, he could have attacked someone who was just defending him/herself. The rest of my statement still stands.

 

[geezer]

i don't think they have, move your hand quickly near a child or a dog that never been hit, they don't flinch...

Yes they most certainly do ...according to my own experience and what I've been able to find online just now.

Apparently the "flinch" or "startle" reflex is innately present in people including infants and is also similarly present in animals other than humans. It's believed to have evolved as a survival trait. What varies is our reactivity to the stimuli that trigger flinch responses, our sensitivity and the degree to which we respond. And this can change with age and experience. Google it and see for yourself!

 

[jobo]

Yes they most certainly do ...according to my own experience and what I've been able to find online just now.

Apparently the "flinch" or "startle" reflex is innately present in people including infants and is also similarly present in animals other than humans. It's believed to have evolved as a survival trait. What varies is our reactivity to the stimuli that trigger flinch responses, our sensitivity and the degree to which we respond. And this can change with age and experience. Google it and see for yourself!

flinching and being startled are not the same thing, you don't flinch if your startled, you eer jump

your not going to be startled by someone your sparring with trying to hit you, are you, its rather what's expected,, in fact its the anticipation of being hit that makes you flinch, your EXPECTING to get hit, your not startled at all

 

[jobo]

It's tough to examine that claim without stating names. I can tell you that my fiancee had that issue and I'm fairly certain she was never hit, based on her report and her families reports, and my own observations. Two of my roomates who I trained, the same-they and their families denied ever engaging in corporal punishment, all lovely people whom I believe, and they denied ever being in a fight. Flinched when I started teaching them martial arts. People at dojos that I've trained in had flinching reaction, despite their own reports of not being hit and/or in a fight, although I can't give a number and that's obviously less reliable since I don't have any collateral for that..but I have no reason to disbelieve them.

I had my own flinching problem which got solved by fighting more as well.

Sorry, that's my own assumption that he had been abused. For clarification, physical child abuse is defined as "Physical child abuse is physical injury inflicted upon the child with cruel and/or malicious intent. Physical abuse can be the result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, burning, shaking, or otherwise harming a child physically.", according to medicine.net, which I feel can be transferred to animals as a good definition for physical animal abuse. I personally would add in something about a position of power for the abuse if I were to generalize that statement (a 3 year old could hit a 10 year old meaning to hurt him, but I wouldn't consider that abuse for instance).

So I made an assumption that a dog that reacted to any hand coming near him as a possible hit and at least sometimes bit that hand had been physically injured with cruel/malicious intent. That intent may have not been there I suppose, he could have attacked someone who was just defending him/herself. The rest of my statement still stands.

so that's THREE, out of the world population of 7 billion, you said it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ( so that would be EVERYONE) that quite a small number to base that on. how have you come to that conclusion.

yes the dog had been beaten black and blue, its the OP that i didn't say had been abused

 

[dvcochran]

In regards to animals, anyone who use hunting dogs know how "twitchy" they are. And boy can they get jacked up when the hunt starts. Put yourself, especially your hand in the wrong spot and you Will get nipped. This is a very strong trait of predatory animals. I find it reasonable to believe some of this is still inherent in humans, especially one that has been in very adverse conditions (poor living conditions, battle, etc...). I can see abuse increasing the reaction but not inherently causing it.

 

[jobo]

In regards to animals, anyone who use hunting dogs know how "twitchy" they are. And boy can they get jacked up when the hunt starts. Put yourself, especially your hand in the wrong spot and you Will get nipped. This is a very strong trait of predatory animals. I find it reasonable to believe some of this is still inherent in humans, especially one that has been in very adverse conditions (poor living conditions, battle, etc...). I can see abuse increasing the reaction but not inherently causing it.

FLINCH not TWITCHY

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

so that's THREE, out of the world population of 7 billion, you said it HAPPENS ALL THE TIME ( so that would be EVERYONE) that quite a small number to base that on. how have you come to that conclusion.

yes the dog had been beaten black and blue, its the OP that i didn't say had been abused

You asked for the people with me as witness. Which by definition is less than 7 billion.

On top of that, i said all the time, not everyone, two very different statements no matter how pedantic you choose to be to ignore the actual argument.

On top of that, i specified it is more than 3 people, as it is also the people that I referenced but have nothing to go on but their word.

On top of that, I did not even claim it was for all the people that I know, and it would be entirely off topic to go through and evaluate each person I know, how many of them have vs. Haven't been hit that I'm aware of and their flinch reaction.

But, you do not care about any of this, you only wish to troll. @Faith , please ignore jobo's trolling of myself and others here and focus on the actual responses to the OP.

 

[jobo]

You asked for the people with me as witness. Which by definition is less than 7 billion.

On top of that, i said all the time, not everyone, two very different statements no matter how pedantic you choose to be to ignore the actual argument.

On top of that, i specified it is more than 3 people, as it is also the people that I referenced but have nothing to go on but their word.

On top of that, I did not even claim it was for all the people that I know, and it would be entirely off topic to go through and evaluate each person I know, how many of them have vs. Haven't been hit that I'm aware of and their flinch reaction.

But, you do not care about any of this, you only wish to troll. @Faith , please ignore jobo's trolling of myself and others here and focus on the actual responses to the OP.

all of the time means all points in time, that then obviously includes everyone. unless of course they don't experience time. the only other meaning would be that it happens to these friends of yours continually without ever stopping and that would be silly


so if you didn't mean all of the time, what did you mean

 

[_Simon_]

People do flinch when they've never been hit, if they think they'll be about to be hit. Happens all the time.

But a large reaction like what you're describing, where a motion towards the person or animal makes them think they're about to be hit is an entirely different situation. My advice wasn't for someone dealing with abuse/ptsd, but nothing in the OP suggested that was the case here.

Yeah, isn't the flinch an inbuilt biological survival mechanism, if something's flying towards your face that you'll flinch automatically as an inbuilt protective measure?

And no jobo I do not have the 14,000 peer reviewed scientific research papers to back this!!!!!!! XD

 

[_Simon_]

and that would be silly

I have issue with this, please provide the evidence that the event you said prior would indeed be categorized as "silly", with evidence-based research and also some clear video evidence of its occurrence and a solid measuring reference tool to evaluate its exact level of silliness.

Maybe proof of what even constitutes something as being "silly" (with etymological backing) would be needed too.

 

[Gweilo]

@jobo any scientific research can be found with a mere google search, but you have to search under psychology in perticular, reseach on the subconscious mind.
When we are born psycologically we are perfect (apart from the instinct of a dislike of loud noise) as a new born we are bombarded with affection, as we get older we start to be exposed to the world, we learn fire burns, falling can hurt, hopefully to look both ways to cross the road, the subconscious builds up a survival blue print a map or instruction manuel for survival, but it is like a jigsaw puzzle, the main central parts of the puzzle, fire burns etc remain, other parts of the puzzle/blueprint can be changed, you are correct in the response is learned, but it does not need to be personally experienced, so someone can learn to flinch, purely by seeing someone else receive a punch, this is common in people who witnessed violence, children who had lived with domestic violence for example. Flinching is part of the fight or flight response, and dealing with it is partly phisical training, but mostly mental training, this does include controlling anxiety through breath work. So you are partially right, but every individual comes through the flinch response in a different way, you dont need to get bit for six moths to help a dog, there are other, better, quicker methods, which I wont go into as this is a ma forum not a dog behaviour forum.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Flinching and getting hit makes getting hit worse because you are not in a good structure.

Fair enough, but there are many types of flinch or what somone could call a flinch. its just generla advice if its not something negative dont bother trying to fix it.

 

[jobo]

I have issue with this, please provide the evidence that the event you said prior would indeed be categorized as "silly", with evidence-based research and also some clear video evidence of its occurrence and a solid measuring reference tool to evaluate its exact level of silliness.

Maybe proof of what even constitutes something as being "silly" (with etymological backing) would be needed too.

+silliness is a subjective judgement, if id have said it was stupid, then you would indeed be correct in asking for it to be quantified

 

[jobo]

Yeah, isn't the flinch an inbuilt biological survival mechanism, if something's flying towards your face that you'll flinch automatically as an inbuilt protective measure?

And no jobo I do not have the 14,000 peer reviewed scientific research papers to back this!!!!!!! XD

flinching isn't a protective measure, no one has ever protected themselves from being hit by flinching

therefore it isnt protective mechanism otherwise we wouldn't be discussing how to stop it, we would be discussing how to learn it

no need for a peer reviewed study for that one,

 

[jobo]

@jobo any scientific research can be found with a mere google search, but you have to search under psychology in perticular, reseach on the subconscious mind.
When we are born psycologically we are perfect (apart from the instinct of a dislike of loud noise) as a new born we are bombarded with affection, as we get older we start to be exposed to the world, we learn fire burns, falling can hurt, hopefully to look both ways to cross the road, the subconscious builds up a survival blue print a map or instruction manuel for survival, but it is like a jigsaw puzzle, the main central parts of the puzzle, fire burns etc remain, other parts of the puzzle/blueprint can be changed, you are correct in the response is learned, but it does not need to be personally experienced, so someone can learn to flinch, purely by seeing someone else receive a punch, this is common in people who witnessed violence, children who had lived with domestic violence for example. Flinching is part of the fight or flight response, and dealing with it is partly phisical training, but mostly mental training, this does include controlling anxiety through breath work. So you are partially right, but every individual comes through the flinch response in a different way, you dont need to get bit for six moths to help a dog, there are other, better, quicker methods, which I wont go into as this is a ma forum not a dog behaviour forum.

have you seen any of these phycology papers ? or are you just sumising they exist

ive just google ''why do people flinch '' and read twenty articles all of which said previous trauma/ bad experience etc etc. so if you have indeed seen such a paper that contradicts all those it would be helpful if you pointed it out, at the moment i'm just wasting time confirming what i all ready know to be true just on your assurance that such exists

if your claim that you can learn to flinch from watching other get punched were univirsaly true, then any child that watched a boxing match would immediately start flinching, as that seems not to be the case, im treating that with a pinch of salt until the papers you claim exist come to light

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

flinching isn't a protective measure, no one has ever protected themselves from being hit by flinching

therefore it isnt protective mechanism otherwise we wouldn't be discussing how to stop it, we would be discussing how to learn it

no need for a peer reviewed study for that one,

No one? So out of the 7 plus billion people, you know that none of them have ever been protected by flinching? That's a bold statement.

 

[jobo]

No one? So out of the 7 plus billion people, you know that none of them have ever been protected by flinching? That's a bold statement.

well its self evidently true, a bit like saying that non of the 7 billion people in this world can teleport to the moon

tensing your body and standing still does not afford any protection at all to stop you being hit, that why its not taught at boxing class, in fact the whole point of this thread is how to stop it as it doesn't.
if you want to make a case that it can be a good thing, feel free, i look forward to you deliberations

 

[Gweilo]

if your claim that you can learn to flinch from watching other get punched were univirsaly true, then any child that watched a boxing match would immediately start flinching, as that seems not to be the case, im treating that with a pinch of salt until the papers you claim exist come to light

The experience would have to be traumatic, like seeing somebody close get hurt, also to shoot your claim down in flames, we used to play a prank on people, when standing near them, we woukd draw our arm up quickly, as if to strike them, but brush our hand as though we were running our fingers through our hair, this made them flinch, we where only about 10 or 12 at the time, so it was a natural response, not a leant one.
In the spirit of recipricity, you spelt a couple of words wrong in the quoted post.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

well its self evidently true, a bit like saying that non of the 7 billion people in this world can teleport to the moon

tensing your body and standing still does not afford any protection at all to stop you being hit, that why its not taught at boxing class, in fact the whole point of this thread is how to stop it as it doesn't.
if you want to make a case that it can be a good thing, feel free, i look forward to you deliberations

So you're suggesting that there hasn't been a single case in the history of the world of someone being protected by flinching, even by accident? That's a far cry from self evident, and not remotely comparable to someone teleporting to the moon.

Pretty sure the burden here is on you to prove your claim, not to make a claim that something has never happened and then state others have to prove that it has.

I'm leaving this thread now though, as I'm helping you bring it even farther off topic. My apologies to the OP.

 

[jobo]

So you're suggesting that there hasn't been a single case in the history of the world of someone being protected by flinching, even by accident? That's a far cry from self evident, and not remotely comparable to someone teleporting to the moon.

Pretty sure the burden here is on you to prove your claim, not to make a claim that something has never happened and then state others have to prove that it has.

I'm leaving this thread now though, as I'm helping you bring it even farther off topic. My apologies to the OP.

that's not how the rules of debate, work, first you need to put forward a case that disagrees with my accerstion

so you need to say'' yes it can afford protection and then as your the one making a positive claim the burden of proof fall on you, , as every one who got out of third grade knows, its impossible to prove a negative, so the burden lies with the one who affirms, in this case that would be you

so lets take you in baby steps as this is clearly new to you

make a contradictory statement, if your not actually disagreeing and your not really, then its pointless taking it further