Honor

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by Zenjael, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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  2. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    Chris Parker that was the best damn response I've ever read in my life.

    My definition of honor is simply sticking to what you believe is morally right for the situation.
     
  3. Aiki Lee

    Aiki Lee Master of Arts

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    Alex,

    When you post you often go off on huge tangents. It would be so much more constructive if you could just get to your point when discussing something instead of talking about a hundred different things at once.
     
  4. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I suppose bowing could be considered part of honor. But I think it's more part of protocol and manners in Martial Arts.
     
  5. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I guess then we can agree that honor, as a whole, could contain elements of respect, manners, and protocol. But, when the s*i* hits the fan, as you so amply put it, honor be damned. I like that...............
     
  6. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    If you are assaulted or otherwise physically wronged, and have put your assailant on their face, you can still act honourably by desisting and reining in the natural desire for on-the-spot retribution or - if they appear injured or unconscious - by calling for medical assistance or assisting yourself.. This is to continue to act with honour even when you are wronged. This is possible. I think this is also prudent.

    If you leave the scene and leave your assailant in a state - even if he appears conscious and ok - does that imply you have acted dishonourably in the context of your own high moral standards? Who can say.

    One can say to oneself, honour be damned and then find oneself damned subsequently by one's very own conscience (even moreso than legal proceedings).

    I think it is wrong to say honour be damned in any situation.
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it's a way of showing respect, and doesn't really have anything to do with your honor (or lack thereof). I also don't think I'd be bowing in to a mugger. :)
     
  8. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Jenna... there's a difference between compassion & honor. Compassion covers what you're talking about, including legalities. Honor has zip to do with that.

    I can be the most dishonorable bastard walking when it comes to fighting & still have compassion enough to not curb stomp somebody when they can't defend themself.
     
  9. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    Sean, I understand what you are saying that your safety and the safety of those in your care is paramount. I would not argue with you on that point at all :) I also believe that what is honourable to one person or social group is not always perceived as honour by another.

    If I am paraphrasing correctly then, you would do what is necessary in an altercation to ensure your safety, yes? If that is so, could you cite an example of the kind of action you might have to take that you feel would make you the most dishonourable bastard in that defensive situation? I would not see you acting dishonourably though perhaps it is a matter of interpretation again. I would be interested in your thoughts. Thank you.
     
  10. clfsean

    clfsean Senior Master

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    Exactly the point. Maybe I was a tad not descriptive enough. My ex-wife told me before I seem to expect everybody to know what I'm thinking.

    There's nothing I've done before in fights or would do in the future that I can guesstimate in a confrontation to make me think myself dishonorable. I don't give a toss what anybody else thought. As long as what I did to take care of myself fell into legal definitions of self defense, I was quite happy with the outcome. I went home. Not unscathed, but I made it home. I'm sure the other individuals made it home at some point too, but hopefully with a lingering question of what was that. Now somebody watching from the out side may look at what I've done saying "that's not right to kick a guy in the nuts" or the like. But I don't care.

    Honor is a personal thing that can only be defined by you. If there's an external code you're trying follow, that's different because now that's an external impetus guiding or directing one of your internal value sets. Without a doubt somebody will weigh you against their own internal value set & judge you accordingly. Bugger them unless they were at your back guarding it.

    Does that help any?
     
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  11. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Honor/Honorable.

    I feel I have honor, but at times perhaps not so honorable. Honor be damned, to clarify, IMO would be the times when I choose to be not so honorable.

    Okinawan goju has stomp kicks, block, strike, and take down would serfice, but, would the stomp that is always done in the pratice of kata be not so honorable, if it were done. Kicking someone when their down and all that.
     
  12. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    @clfsean and @seasoned,

    I believe there is nothing dishonourable in taking any action which is necessary to your safety or wellbeing or that of others in your company. I have injured a person as a matter of my own self-protection. I would never act this way otherwise. I believe defence is honourable because it is a matter of honouring oneself.

    I think if you are acting BEYOND what is necessary then that is where the notion of acting disonourably begins to become pertinent. If you have rendered an opponent unable to continue following a physical approach or attack then you are honouring yourself in your defence. You have not dishonoured them. Honour is not a factor. If however you -as mentioned above- kick their teeth into the kerb then no honour is being displayed by that act.

    I think the distinction might be drawn between acting in a way that is necessary for defence -which is honourable because it is to honour oneself- and acting EXCESSIVELY to what is required to maintain that safety which I think displays no honour, at least by the standard that I measure it personally and it is measured in my community. And again, I appreciate that honour is subjective and social-group dependent. This is only how I perceive it. I appreciate that I am operating in a narrow field of my own experience though. I accept that.

    I am not a gang member, I perceive no honour in hurting someone beyond what is necessary to secure my own physical wellbeing and deter them from acting further.

    I would be surprised if either of you were of greatly different mind? Thank you for your replies :)
     
  13. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Basically it falls back on intent, if I am reading you correctly. Of this I feel we are all on the same page....
     
  14. frank raud

    frank raud Master of Arts

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    Let's see, write pot-induced wall of drivel, cut and paste unto into internet discussion board, have clearer heads disect/correct/direct line of question, gather salient points, cut and paste into original submissions(removing excessive drivel, wax locquacious on several point to provide oft required affirmation of intellectual capabilities) submit to professor who apparently believes nostalagia is an emotion capable of causing death and menstruation was a minor causitive of the Great Depression(never heard of PMS referred to as the Great Depression, but hey...) get decents marks, roll another doobie = Winning!
     
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  15. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    That was pretty damn funny. :)
     
  16. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    for the win123
     

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