Bowing in Martial Arts

Bill Mattocks

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It's pretty simple to me. But apparently it's a big 'thing' to others. Pulled this from an unrelated thread, thought it deserved its own discussion.

I study at a dojo in the USA that we call a 'traditional' Okinawan style dojo (Isshinryu is our style).

We bow when we enter the dojo floor, and when we leave.

We bow to start and end each class - to our Sensei and to the shomen (wall of honor).

We bow to our partners before we begin working with them on self-defense techniques, kata, sparring, or whatnot.

We bow to our Sensei if he speaks directly to us.

We're told that the word 'rei' in Japanese means 'respect'. It is also the word we use to indicate it is time to bow.

I see using Google translate that 礼 means 'thanks' or an expression of gratitude.

In any case, as a military veteran, I am not adverse to bowing. It reminds me of saluting, which I did a lot in the military. It serves a similar function.

When I bow upon entering and leaving the dojo floor, I am showing my respect for all those who have gone before, for the fact that the facility is there for me to train karate.

When I bow to my instructor, I show my respect for him. He returns the bow - showing his respect for me.

When I bow to the shomen, also known as the wall of honor, I am not worshiping anyone or anything, as some have said. I am once again merely showing my respect for those who put in so much effort and dedication in creating and maintaining a style of karate that is now being taught to me.

A bow is more than a handshake, but less than a military salute. It does not indicate obedience or worship or anything of that nature. It's not religious. Perhaps some in the West object to it because bowing to Kings and Queens is seen by many as subservient and therefore unacceptable. But this is not that kind of bowing. I do not think my Sensei, for example, is better than I am, or superior to me in any way. He is my teacher, revered and esteemed, and greatly knowledgeable in the art I am trying to learn. I bow to show my respect. He returns that bow to show his respect for my willingness to dedicate myself to learning what he is teaching.

Therefore, I have no problem with bowing in the martial arts.

And ultimately, even if you believe none of those things, what's the harm? Does it kill you to show a little respect?
 

Andrew Green

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Perhaps some in the West object to it because bowing to Kings and Queens is seen by many as subservient and therefore unacceptable.

It's a action that has a symbolic meaning. It's not a intrinsic meaning, it's one people assign to it. If someones cultural / religious background says they shouldn't bow based on the meaning they associate with the action then I can't say I'd see a problem with it, but use another action that has the meaning that the bow is supposed too.

I get the "when in Rome" mentality, and thats the way I would approach it. But at the same time I don't think it's worth making someone feel uncomfortable over if they come from a background that says they shouldn't do that.
 

hoshin1600

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I don't think it's worth making someone feel uncomfortable over if they come from a background that says they shouldn't do that.
My opinion....."my house my rules" its that simple.
there are religious beliefs where women have to wear long skirts. that wont work for martial arts either. kinda difficult to "roll" with a berka. if your religious beliefs wont allow you to eat pork dont go to a bacon festival.
 
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Headhunter

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To quote chael sonnen "if you bow in most countries you get your wallet stolen"

Lol sorry couldn't resist in kenpo you don't bow you use the salute with your hands instead of bowing. It means the same thing though
 

Gerry Seymour

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You and I have a similar view of the bow, Bill. We bow less than you guys do (entering the training space, start/end class), but it means the same to us it does to you. It's a show of respect. The bow to the shomen/kamiza is a show of respect for those who brought the art to where it is. The bow to start the class is a show of respect to the instructor (by the students) to the students (by the instructor) and to the dedication we all share to the training.

I've become less dedicated to the tradition, mostly because I end up teaching one or two students at a time most classes (very small program), and I feel more comfortable with an informal start. With larger classes, I still prefer the formality of the bow.

I actually think the strangeness (to westerners) of the bow is useful. It becomes a small ritual, a moment to clear the head and focus on being present. That mindfulness is both a useful safety tool and a good practice to develop for other areas of life.
 

JowGaWolf

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We bow to rooms, but not people. We will salute you, but we will never bow to you. :D
Meet me on the playground after school. A kick to your shin will make you do the Chinese bow to the Shrine and a punch to your gut will make you do the Japanese bow. Lol. or a kick to the groin will make you do the double knee bow
 

Touch Of Death

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Meet me on the playground after school. A kick to your shin will make you do the Chinese bow to the Shrine and a punch to your gut will make you do the Japanese bow. Lol. or a kick to the groin will make you do the double knee bow
Our salute can actually act as a defense against your feeble attempts. :cool:
 

JowGaWolf

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I think the word "bow" gets lost in translation for many people. Some people think martial arts bows mean submission but fail to realize that the guy who "bows" to you may be getting ready to kick your butt. For example in combat competitions. A Muay Thai fighter who bows to me doesn't give me a sense that he or she is submitting to me. Most people who have a problem with it don't take a martial art. Fighters will bow to their opponent as the opponent is laying on the mat trying to figure what building he's in. Lol
 
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Touch Of Death

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I think the word "bow" gets lost in translation for many people. Some people think martial arts bows mean submission but fail to realize that the guy who "bows" to you may be getting ready to kick your butt. For example in combat competitions. A Muay Thai fighter who bows to me doesn't give me a sense that he or she is submitting to me. Most people who have a problem with it don't take a martial art. Fighters will bow to their opponent as the opponent is laying on the mat trying to figure what building he's in. Lol
Our salute has three purposes. It is a fighting tool, a way to show respect, and a way to piss off the Japanese, and Okinawan lineages. o_O
 

Danny T

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Within the Martial Arts there are many outward displays of Courtesy and Respect. The thing about it all is that:
It is about Courtesy and Respect.
The Salute is about Courtesy and Respect.
The Hand grasp/shake is about Courtesy and Respect.
The Bow is about Courtesy and Respect.
In the martial arts it is not about subjugation or submission to another it is simply about Courtesy and Respect.
 

Dirty Dog

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In western culture, it's not uncommon for people to greet each other with a head bob. Sometimes down, sometimes up. It's still essentially the same thing as a bow. A greeting. A sign of respect.
In our dojang we bow as a sign of respect. Nothing more. But nothing less, either.
 

Steve

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This is another thread that makes me think, 'huh.' It seems that everyone pretty much agrees with the original post. So, the question I have for @Bill Mattocks is, where is this coming from? The tone of the OP suggests that the position you're taking is controversial. What are we missing?
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is another thread that makes me think, 'huh.' It seems that everyone pretty much agrees with the original post. So, the question I have for @Bill Mattocks is, where is this coming from? The tone of the OP suggests that the position you're taking is controversial. What are we missing?
In another thread, the assertion was made that bowing in MA is, unequivocally religious. Several of us disagreed.
 

Balrog

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In another thread, the assertion was made that bowing in MA is, unequivocally religious. Several of us disagreed.
Oh, I've had that tossed at me several times. :)

Usually when I get someone gronking at me about bowing, I ask them "Do you ever nod your head to someone when you see them?" They almost always answer yes. I say "It's the same thing, we just nod a little deeper." End of discussion.
 

drop bear

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In western culture, it's not uncommon for people to greet each other with a head bob. Sometimes down, sometimes up. It's still essentially the same thing as a bow. A greeting. A sign of respect.
In our dojang we bow as a sign of respect. Nothing more. But nothing less, either.
 

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