Five Martial Arts Principles

[jobo]

Then "for the record", "They are haughty and elitist, and cling to their status as "science" to give themselves the authority to determine the true and false of anything and everything, often whilst borrowing the opinion of other scientists rather than forming their own from the original science experiments, observations and systematic modeling. They then explain away reality that contradicts their views to protect their pride and authority." --> ".. and cling" should have been "... clinging" as in they are haughty and elitist for clinging to their so on and so forth. That makes them literally hypo-critical (no negation) of their source that they derive from to justify their hyper-critical negation (the emphasis not on the validity of the attitude but of the authenticity of their claims as to whether something is possible or causation of something). Whether this attitude on its own is a bad thing is another discussion. I'm claiming they're wrong, and taking a critical approach to the sources of information and "common sense" regarding human ability, learning, and application in the context of fighting and fitness.



Like I said, I just like the diagram. I already held similar principles in my mind beforehand.



A lot of that is lower intensity though. And proper form isn't necessarily proper without the necessary power. You might be able to do the form, but your joints and muscles and bones might not be strong enough to deliver a strong hit or move very quickly. Since this is about combat, the singular principle is body damage, domination or negation.



It's "anti-authoritarian"; or, "when death has no reality" (jk-ing)



Gymnastics engages many of the same muscle groups. Traps, Lats, Back. If they ever performed a squat in their life, then they would have the necessary strength to deadlift 2x bodyweight. A high level gymnast could likely perform 2.5x bodyweight.



I couldn't find anything on him either. I guess he's a schmuck. "Gymnast tries deadlifting" isn't getting me anywhere either, so I can't find a clear case where a gymnast that doesn't deadlift tries deadlifting. Unprovable either way for now.

I'm having trouble picking your actual points out, as you seem to be going in every direction at once.

so a few to start with,

i i would expect a full grown male gymnast to be able to dead lift two x body weight, that really the lower end for any body who is athletic, even with out specific training.

people who are" gymnasts", are so because. They were born with the genetics to allow that, a normal/ average person following the,same training will Not derive the same out comes in strengh or agility. Just as an average person will not end up dead lifting 800 lbs. If you are going to make comparisons you need to compare like with like. A top level gymnast will out perform hobby power lifters most of the time, and that's with out the fact that they quite probably do some weights as part of their training anyway.

have you any tangible evidence of 100lbs Mother's lifting cars off children, its either a complete myth OR is incredibly rare.

it is perhaps possible to triple your strengh in such circumstances, but that two ton car is still not getting lifted

 

[Martial D]

I've had the exact same principles in mind, but saw it nicely represented in the Kengan Asura manga.View attachment 21224

I would add "Physical Fitness", but besides that, this seems like a complete diagram.

Ok, so what? You've got a very arbitrary division of some rather obvious yet extremely vague concepts spilled out on a pretty diagram with some Asian sounding names.

Anyone that does any sort of martial art already know mobility and power are important.

 

[oftheherd1]

What an enjoyably humorous thread. Thanks to all who made it so.

 

[Primal Monk]

I'm having trouble picking your actual points out, as you seem to be going in every direction at once.

so a few to start with,

i i would expect a full grown male gymnast to be able to dead lift two x body weight, that really the lower end for any body who is athletic, even with out specific training.

people who are" gymnasts", are so because. They were born with the genetics to allow that, a normal/ average person following the,same training will Not derive the same out comes in strengh or agility. Just as an average person will not end up dead lifting 800 lbs. If you are going to make comparisons you need to compare like with like. A top level gymnast will out perform hobby power lifters most of the time, and that's with out the fact that they quite probably do some weights as part of their training anyway.

have you any tangible evidence of 100lbs Mother's lifting cars off children, its either a complete myth OR is incredibly rare.

it is perhaps possible to triple your strengh in such circumstances, but that two ton car is still not getting lifted

One end of the car, not lifted over your head like the hulk. That's about 1/2 the weight, + the fact that it's stable, and that the shocks will take care of some weight for the first few inches. That's probably 250-300 lbs for a 1500 lb car. 500 - 600 lbs for a 3000 lb car. Yes, You Really Can Lift a Car Off a Trapped Child
SuperMom: Could a mother actually lift a car to save her child?
Superhero Daughter Lifts Car Off Dad

Genetics doesn't prevent you from developing gymnastic ability. You can do all the same, standard moves after a couple years of training. If you half *** it or throw a god damn pity party the whole time, you won't achieve anything. If you use visualization and KNOW you're going to get god damn results after two years on par with high level gymnasts, then you will.

It's this pathetic genetics ******** and other "I can't do it" ******** that keeps people from achieving anything. Even if you have so many factors against you, if you are a "can do" person rather than "can't do", you'll "reach the moon" even if you're "shooting for the stars". If you're shooting for something beyond the stars, you'll at least reach somewhere between the moon and the stars, and more than likely reach the stars. The best aren't even thinking about stardom, or being as good as the elite. They'll just go, "Huh? Whatever. I just do it, I don't think about how high I am or falling. I look for what I could be doing better in every moment, in everything I do. When I reach a certain point where I'm stuck, I just know I'm at a plateau and try to break through my limitations.". It's about diligence, determination, effort, excellence, and focus. Your average person doesn't have any one of these, let alone five.

Ok, so what? You've got a very arbitrary division of some rather obvious yet extremely vague concepts spilled out on a pretty diagram with some Asian sounding names.

Anyone that does any sort of martial art already know mobility and power are important.

Sorry, I should provide examples. I like brain storming so I was hoping some kindred spirits were here that wanted to talk about techniques that fall into each category, and how they would be achieved by what training. When you have the intention of learning how to do only what's normal to do, that's all you learn. If you have the intention to learn a different kind of skill set and level of ability, that's what you develop. People don't try to, so it doesn't happen.

Training ideas:
>For Flame, or footwork/agility,

you can develop the strength in your toes, feet, ankles, calves, knees, thighs, hips etc in a number of ways. With the intended result being able to shift weight from foot to foot in an instance, to move extremely well with just one foot, to change direction or move from just the toes, to change direction near-instantly, and to move forward towards or backwards away from someone without creating any openings or creating opportunities for yourself to attack.​

>Ballet training would definitely help in this.
>Exercise ideas:

Hook your feet under something and do glute ham raises/holds or quad/ankle raises/holds. Become proficient in soccer and soccer juggling with a weighted medicine ball. Perform calf intensive things (like soccer) with a weighted vest on, and/or crouched (makes it much more difficult). Squat [variations]. Trying pulling yourself forward and pushing yourself back with your toes and feet rather than lifting them off the ground. Lift **** with just your toes, such as one end of a dumbbell resting on your toes. Develop fine motor control by learning how to move each toe individually. Develop the inside and outside of the leg by the previous heavy soccer method, but specifically hitting the ball against a wall with an outter or inner rotation of the knee AND ankle, and even whilst crouched, partially or fully.​

>Train for extreme, spontaneous balance and rootedness;

this includes stopping on a dime and in the midst of movements that would normally throw a person forward or backward or off balance in general.​

I shouldn't have to say it, but use progressive overload, not "I want results today" hurt yourself load.

 

[Martial D]

One end of the car, not lifted over your head like the hulk. That's about 1/2 the weight, + the fact that it's stable, and that the shocks will take care of some weight for the first few inches. That's probably 250-300 lbs for a 1500 lb car. 500 - 600 lbs for a 3000 lb car. Yes, You Really Can Lift a Car Off a Trapped Child
SuperMom: Could a mother actually lift a car to save her child?
Superhero Daughter Lifts Car Off Dad



Sorry, I should provide examples. I like brain storming so I was hoping some kindred spirits were here that wanted to talk about techniques that fall into each category, and how they would be achieved by what training. When you have the intention of learning how to do only what's normal to do, that's all you learn. If you have the intention to learn a different kind of skill set and level of ability, that's what you develop. People don't try to, so it doesn't happen.

Training ideas:
>For Flame, or footwork/agility,

you can develop the strength in your toes, feet, ankles, calves, knees, thighs, hips etc in a number of ways. With the intended result being able to shift weight from foot to foot in an instance, to move extremely well with just one foot, to change direction or move from just the toes, to change direction near-instantly, and to move forward towards or backwards away from someone without creating any openings or creating opportunities for yourself to attack.​

>Ballet training would definitely help in this.
>Exercise ideas:

Hook your feet under something and do glute ham raises/holds or quad/ankle raises/holds. Become proficient in soccer and soccer juggling with a weighted medicine ball. Perform calf intensive things (like soccer) with a weighted vest on, and/or crouched (makes it much more difficult). Squat [variations]. Trying pulling yourself forward and pushing yourself back with your toes and feet rather than lifting them off the ground. Lift **** with just your toes, such as one end of a dumbbell resting on your toes. Develop fine motor control by learning how to move each toe individually. Develop the inside and outside of the leg by the previous heavy soccer method, but specifically hitting the ball against a wall with an outter or inner rotation of the knee AND ankle, and even whilst crouched, partially or fully.​

>Train for extreme, spontaneous balance and rootedness;

this includes stopping on a dime and in the midst of movements that would normally throw a person forward or backward or off balance in general.​

I shouldn't have to say it, but use progressive overload, not "I want results today" hurt yourself load.

Your problem seems to be your approach here. You are coming at a group of subject matter experts with first day basic revelations as if we should find them deep and meaningful, all the while managing to seem arrogant about it.

Big yawn. Got anything interesting?

 

[Primal Monk]

Your problem seems to be your approach here. You are coming at a group of subject matter experts with first day basic revelations as if we should find them deep and meaningful, all the while managing to seem arrogant about it.

Big yawn. Got anything interesting?

You stole my line. Are you reading my mind?

Show me something interesting.

 

[Martial D]

You stole my line. Are you reading my mind?

Question. What martial art do you train in, and for how long have you trained it?

 

[Primal Monk]

Question. What martial art do you train in, and for how long have you trained it?

So you have nothing interesting to show me?

 

[Martial D]

So you have nothing interesting to show me?

It's not that sort of forum buddy.

Good luck I guess.

 

[Primal Monk]

It's not that sort of forum buddy.

Good luck I guess.

It's not that kind of forum, where you can post a video of you in action at any moment, or of someone you spar with?
Or it's a forum of amateurs who wish to remain amateurs?

Even if every single person on this forum were amateurs, we should try to provide a way to becoming not-amateurs. Maybe some friendly competitions even; challenges, contests. I notice "members in action" is pretty empty and never posted in. It's as if people don't want to open themselves to criticism. Maybe they'll give up on learning how to fight then, eh? That's a pretty toxic mindset, all that pretense and weak determination; not the criticism. A website-wide phenomena. Or rather, a global phenomena. Seems pretty backwards.

What would be progressive is if people started posting themselves in action, and they got tore apart, but improved because of it, and came back later with their progress they made from all the feedback. They might even grow a thicker skin, which is in fact relevant in a fight.

 

[Midnight-shadow]

It's not that kind of forum, where you can post a video of you in action at any moment, or of someone you spar with?
Or it's a forum of amateurs who wish to remain amateurs?

Even if every single person on this forum were amateurs, we should try to provide a way to becoming not-amateurs. Maybe some friendly competitions even; challenges, contests. I notice "members in action" is pretty empty and never posted in. It's as if people don't want to open themselves to criticism. Maybe they'll give up on learning how to fight then, eh? That's a pretty toxic mindset, all that pretense and weak determination; not the criticism. A website-wide phenomena. Or rather, a global phenomena. Seems pretty backwards.

What would be progressive is if people started posting themselves in action, and they got tore apart, but improved because of it, and came back later with their progress they made from all the feedback. They might even grow a thicker skin, which is in fact relevant in a fight.

I personally have no problem with remaining an "amateur" at Martial Arts. Would you like to know why? Because the only difference between a "professional" and an "amateur" at something is that the professional gets paid, whereas the amateur doesn't (or very rarely gets paid). Just because you don't get paid for doing something doesn't automatically make you less good than someone who does get paid.

On a side note, it seems to me that you want the rest of us to prove our worth to you by posting videos of us in action. That's all well and good except for one slight problem......nobody here gives a damn what you think of their combat skills. Most of us are here to discuss the various Martial Arts, swap training methods, philosophies, etc, not to have a chest-beating ego-fest to try and prove who is the superior Martial Artist. The other more practical problem with posting videos of us in action is that most of us here come from different Martial Arts background. Different styles, lineages, teachers, etc. As such there is no uniform standard to benchmark our performances against, and a lot of times it's pointless trying to correct technical aspects when you don't know the context and philosophy behind the movements. Unless you have a very good understanding of the style and philosophy of the person you are watching (i.e. you both study the same style and lineage), you can generally only give a very vague critique. That's partly why I have never posted a video on here, because I know the person who will give me the best advice to improve is my own instructor.

 

[jobo]

One end of the car, not lifted over your head like the hulk. That's about 1/2 the weight, + the fact that it's stable, and that the shocks will take care of some weight for the first few inches. That's probably 250-300 lbs for a 1500 lb car. 500 - 600 lbs for a 3000 lb car. Yes, You Really Can Lift a Car Off a Trapped Child
SuperMom: Could a mother actually lift a car to save her child?
Superhero Daughter Lifts Car Off Dad

Genetics doesn't prevent you from developing gymnastic ability. You can do all the same, standard moves after a couple years of training. If you half *** it or throw a god damn pity party the whole time, you won't achieve anything. If you use visualization and KNOW you're going to get god damn results after two years on par with high level gymnasts, then you will.

It's this pathetic genetics ******** and other "I can't do it" ******** that keeps people from achieving anything. Even if you have so many factors against you, if you are a "can do" person rather than "can't do", you'll "reach the moon" even if you're "shooting for the stars". If you're shooting for something beyond the stars, you'll at least reach somewhere between the moon and the stars, and more than likely reach the stars. The best aren't even thinking about stardom, or being as good as the elite. They'll just go, "Huh? Whatever. I just do it, I don't think about how high I am or falling. I look for what I could be doing better in every moment, in everything I do. When I reach a certain point where I'm stuck, I just know I'm at a plateau and try to break through my limitations.". It's about diligence, determination, effort, excellence, and focus. Your average person doesn't have any one of these, let alone five.



Sorry, I should provide examples. I like brain storming so I was hoping some kindred spirits were here that wanted to talk about techniques that fall into each category, and how they would be achieved by what training. When you have the intention of learning how to do only what's normal to do, that's all you learn. If you have the intention to learn a different kind of skill set and level of ability, that's what you develop. People don't try to, so it doesn't happen.

Training ideas:
>For Flame, or footwork/agility,

you can develop the strength in your toes, feet, ankles, calves, knees, thighs, hips etc in a number of ways. With the intended result being able to shift weight from foot to foot in an instance, to move extremely well with just one foot, to change direction or move from just the toes, to change direction near-instantly, and to move forward towards or backwards away from someone without creating any openings or creating opportunities for yourself to attack.​

>Ballet training would definitely help in this.
>Exercise ideas:

Hook your feet under something and do glute ham raises/holds or quad/ankle raises/holds. Become proficient in soccer and soccer juggling with a weighted medicine ball. Perform calf intensive things (like soccer) with a weighted vest on, and/or crouched (makes it much more difficult). Squat [variations]. Trying pulling yourself forward and pushing yourself back with your toes and feet rather than lifting them off the ground. Lift **** with just your toes, such as one end of a dumbbell resting on your toes. Develop fine motor control by learning how to move each toe individually. Develop the inside and outside of the leg by the previous heavy soccer method, but specifically hitting the ball against a wall with an outter or inner rotation of the knee AND ankle, and even whilst crouched, partially or fully.​

>Train for extreme, spontaneous balance and rootedness;

this includes stopping on a dime and in the midst of movements that would normally throw a person forward or backward or off balance in general.​

I shouldn't have to say it, but use progressive overload, not "I want results today" hurt yourself load.

hang on, you were saying that lifting cars was a super human power, now your saying its not that heavy anyway!

raising the body work a few inches is easily achievable, there is a big spring to help you, but lifting the car, which is what you said, ie wheels off the ground is not , and doing so is lifting far more than 300lb. Particularly at the front were the big engine is,
those links you posted mostly disagree with what you are saying, did you read them? And not one off them related to a 100lb woman, which is your main claim.

i can lift the back of a small car to get the wheels off the ground an inch or so, but I'm a 200 lbs male, so again have you any proof of a 100lb female lifting a car?

 

[Primal Monk]

I personally have no problem with remaining an "amateur" at Martial Arts. Would you like to know why? Because the only difference between a "professional" and an "amateur" at something is that the professional gets paid, whereas the amateur doesn't (or very rarely gets paid). Just because you don't get paid for doing something doesn't automatically make you less good than someone who does get paid.

On a side note, it seems to me that you want the rest of us to prove our worth to you by posting videos of us in action. That's all well and good except for one slight problem......nobody here gives a damn what you think of their combat skills. Most of us are here to discuss the various Martial Arts, swap training methods, philosophies, etc, not to have a chest-beating ego-fest to try and prove who is the superior Martial Artist. The other more practical problem with posting videos of us in action is that most of us here come from different Martial Arts background. Different styles, lineages, teachers, etc. As such there is no uniform standard to benchmark our performances against, and a lot of times it's pointless trying to correct technical aspects when you don't know the context and philosophy behind the movements. Unless you have a very good understanding of the style and philosophy of the person you are watching (i.e. you both study the same style and lineage), you can generally only give a very vague critique. That's partly why I have never posted a video on here, because I know the person who will give me the best advice to improve is my own instructor.

You're using the MMA definition of amateur. I'm just using the regular definition. This has to do with ability, competence. If you're not competent, you should be striving to become competent. If you don't expose your incompetence, you will never be competent. Your instructor is pacing his critique to fit your expectations + a bit or lot of his own. You're paying him, he isn't going to scare you away, and is going to use a "common denominator" training method for lazy cowardly people. He'll tell you "this training is intimidating. Not everyone can do this." to make you feel special and competent. You aren't. People who aren't paid by you will tell you that you could be knocked over by a breeze when you're kicking, you're so imbalanced and uprooted. People who aren't being paid will tell you that your punches have no power, no speed, and your body is weak as ****. If you don't want an honest assessment of yourself for of ALL THINGS: FIGHTING, then be my guess and play fight your whole life, wasting your time and money. Your ego is weak, like a child's. You're more worried about being sensitive to feelings than actually improving. Black Belt my ***. "Instructor knows best." my ***. What are these belt rankings even based on? Post count? Jesus.

If you post a video and people critique it, and you disagree, defend yourself. That's what fighting is. You fight. You don't avoid them when all it does is help you improve.

Try to develop some grit.

 

[Primal Monk]

hang on, you were saying that lifting cars was a super human power, now your saying its not that heavy anyway!

raising the body work a few inches is easily achievable, there is a big spring to help you, but lifting the car, which is what you said, ie wheels off the ground is not , and doing so is lifting far more than 300lb. Particularly at the front were the big engine is,
those links you posted mostly disagree with what you are saying, did you read them? And not one off them related to a 100lb woman, which is your main claim.

i can lift the back of a small car to get the wheels off the ground an inch or so, but I'm a 200 lbs male, so again have you any proof of a 100lb female lifting a car?

Even wheels off the ground.
http://rense.com/general20/trap.htm
Teen girl uses 'crazy strength' to lift burning car off dad
One of the links I posted was already a woman, without springs, lifting the wheelless corner off of her father. This one is a woman doing the same thing; the truck is easily 4000 - 10000+ lbs total, though likely it took only 600 lbs to lift. Another small woman. I stated 120 lbs as well, not 100 lbs. Lifting 4x bodyweight in the moment proves my point. The other link is a 110 lb woman lifting a van 4-5 inches.

 

[jobo]

You're using the MMA definition of amateur. I'm just using the regular definition. This has to do with ability, competence. If you're not competent, you should be striving to become competent. If you don't expose your incompetence, you will never be competent. Your instructor is pacing his critique to fit your expectations + a bit or lot of his own. You're paying him, he isn't going to scare you away, and is going to use a "common denominator" training method for lazy cowardly people. He'll tell you "this training is intimidating. Not everyone can do this." to make you feel special and competent. You aren't. People who aren't paid by you will tell you that you could be knocked over by a breeze when you're kicking, you're so imbalanced and uprooted. People who aren't being paid will tell you that your punches have no power, no speed, and your body is weak as ****. If you don't want an honest assessment of yourself for of ALL THINGS: FIGHTING, then be my guess and play fight your whole life, wasting your time and money. Your ego is weak, like a child's. You're more worried about being sensitive to feelings than actually improving. Black Belt my ***. "Instructor knows best." my ***. What are these belt rankings even based on? Post count? Jesus.

If you post a video and people critique it, and you disagree, defend yourself. That's what fighting is. You fight. You don't avoid them when all it does is help you improve.

Try to develop some grit.

i think he is using the accepted defintion of amateur, what defintion are you using ?

 

[jobo]

Even wheels off the ground.
http://rense.com/general20/trap.htm
Teen girl uses 'crazy strength' to lift burning car off dad
One of the links I posted was already a woman, without springs, lifting the wheelless corner off of her father. This one is a woman doing the same thing; the truck is easily 4000 - 10000+ lbs total, though likely it took only 600 lbs to lift. Another small woman. I stated 120 lbs as well, not 100 lbs. Lifting 4x bodyweight in the moment proves my point. The other link is a 110 lb woman lifting a van 4-5 inches.

no, you need one that a) involves at least one wheel of the ground AND b) a 120 lb woman. Just putting random news paper reports that don't make it clear what was lifted and how heavy the woman was it not proving your claim

 

[Primal Monk]

i think he is using the accepted defintion of amateur, what defintion are you using ?

Amateur, as in, you have little skill and competence.

 

[Primal Monk]

no, you need one that a) involves at least one wheel of the ground AND b) a 120 lb woman. Just putting random news paper reports that don't make it clear what was lifted and how heavy the woman was it not proving your claim

I threw in another link before you replied. Check it.

 

[Hanshi]

I've had the exact same principles in mind, but saw it nicely represented in the Kengan Asura manga.View attachment 21224

I would add "Physical Fitness", but besides that, this seems like a complete diagram.

Interesting; never have seen that before. I teach principles that I was taught, of course, but there were significantly more of them and not quite as specific.

I have come to the conclusion, after many decades in the martial arts, that the teaching of "principles" is just as important, if not more so, than teaching techniques. Often I've seen techniques performed correctly and not work. On the other hand I've witnessed techniques done "not so well" but employing the principles I teach work very well.

 

[jobo]

Amateur, as in, you have little skill and competence.

that appears to be your own defintion, !