Do cross hand grabs to the wrist happen much in real fights?

[Floating Egg]

Isn't there also a principle being attached to the wrist grab defense? In the Bujinkan, with Omote Gyaku, which is done from a lapel grab, it's the principle that's being transfered. Omote Gyaku can be applied from a wrist grab, a neck grab, a shoulder grab etc.

 

[shesulsa]

http://www.skfriends.com/kvz/dirrer/movies/carlie-brucia-video/020104-edit.MOV


The actual abduction.

Thanks for posting this.

I was wrong - that was same-side.

But I'd agree that most wrist grabs are either done with weapons (as mentioned) or man-on-woman.

 

[loki09789]

I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?

Some traps and weapons defense/disarms are meant for the right hand because that is the weapon dominate/side dominance that most people seem to have.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Isn't there also a principle being attached to the wrist grab defense? In the Bujinkan, with Omote Gyaku, which is done from a lapel grab, it's the principle that's being transfered. Omote Gyaku can be applied from a wrist grab, a neck grab, a shoulder grab etc.

Depends on the defense, I suppose. There are principals in terms of what direction to put pressure against the wrist that work regardless of what is grabbed. I think the angle of the arm grabbing in relationship to your hands will effect how you can/will apply that principle.

 

[Nanalo74]

I agree whole heartedly that nothing can be predicted. However I think we can rely on experience, and the wisdom of things seen. So technically maybe it could happen, but I said no because I would tend to dwell on more pertinent possibilities. A squirrel can have a coronary fall from tree and crack you on the cranium, but are what are the chances. I stated that of course train for these things, as all training is valuable to me, better to be prepared for anything, but i stand behind my statement that you likely will never encounter such an attack. By the im just re enforcing my position while trying to clarify it somewhat, please dont see this post as argumentitive or inflammatory, no offense towards anyone

I have to agree with you on this one. I've been in plenty of scrapes. Hell, in my line of work on a nightly basis, and I've never seen nor experienced anyone trying to grab me or anyone else that way. Just doesn't happen.

 

[agatanai atsilahu]

Just a breif commentary on the abduction. I work with children, and am certified through the natioanl security council's kid safe program. Regardless of what grip or grab that scum used, the sad truth is that she was ill prepared for any technique. Chances are that she was emmediately griped by fear, or duped by a ploy. ploys are a child predators expertise. They study childrens behavior like a sick science. when it comes to our kids the signifigance of this tech or that tech falls rapidly to the wayside. Lets just get all of our kids trained. Compliance is old school thought. Its all about fighting back, if you are taken to a secondary location, you are dead. As scary as it is for kids, together with their folks we need to see all of them properly trained, not only in self defense, but in alert prevention, observational skills training, and even though scary, teach them about what they are up against.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I hear people saying "Anything can happen" and that's true. But, is the wrist grab so prevalent that we need to dedicated hours of valuable training time preparing for a rare situation. That's the real question. We can prepare for everything if we have an infinite amount of training time, but we don't. Besides, I think the wrist grab threat can be dealt with without learning a few dozen SPECIFIC counters to the wrist grab. For example, I know more than a few boxers and muay thai practitioners, and none of them have probably ever trained specifically to counter a wrist grab. However, i'll bet you a large amount of money that no one will EVER hang on to their wrist very long. I'd prefer to train people in a few high percentage techniques that can be used in multiple situations, than train a lot of scenario specific techniques, trying to cover every possible scenario.

 

[loki09789]

I hear people saying "Anything can happen" and that's true. But, is the wrist grab so prevalent that we need to dedicated hours of valuable training time preparing for a rare situation. That's the real question. We can prepare for everything if we have an infinite amount of training time, but we don't. Besides, I think the wrist grab threat can be dealt with without learning a few dozen SPECIFIC counters to the wrist grab. For example, I know more than a few boxers and muay thai practitioners, and none of them have probably ever trained specifically to counter a wrist grab. However, i'll bet you a large amount of money that no one will EVER hang on to their wrist very long. I'd prefer to train people in a few high percentage techniques that can be used in multiple situations, than train a lot of scenario specific techniques, trying to cover every possible scenario.

Kenpo and FMA are conceptual arts so, even though it may look like a class is entirely devoted to one or two 'wrist grabs' what is actually happening is the early phases of conceptualization. The same motions that are applied in that specific wrist grab escape can be translated to a punch defense, an armbar..... and the mental exercise of finding different applications for that series of mechanical motions is just as important in the development of adaptability/tactical sense as training any one specific technique.

 

[pesilat]

I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?

As others have pointed out, this is more likely when a man is trying to start something with a woman.

However, here's a type of scenario that a lot of people overlook (if it's already been mentioned in the thread, I apologize, I was too lazy to read the whole thread).

In the Filipino martial arts that I train, we primarily train locks as a method of weapon retention - i.e.: the guy grabs your wrist to get control of your weapon or set up for a disarm or whatever. Extrapolating from there leads to a few possible scenarios that come to my mind right off:

I'm reaching for a phone or already have it in hand to call the cops and a guy grabs my wrist to prevent it.

I've got my keys in my hand about to get in my car and a guy grabs my wrist to try to get the keys from my hand - maybe he hits me first (if he's smart) but if the hit doesn't knock me loopy then I may still be able to do something.

A guy could grab my wrist just to try to steal something from my hand - my wallet or money or my watch.

These are just the first that come to my mind. I'm sure there are others in this vein that could happen.

Mike

 

[sgtmac_46]

Kenpo and FMA are conceptual arts so, even though it may look like a class is entirely devoted to one or two 'wrist grabs' what is actually happening is the early phases of conceptualization. The same motions that are applied in that specific wrist grab escape can be translated to a punch defense, an armbar..... and the mental exercise of finding different applications for that series of mechanical motions is just as important in the development of adaptability/tactical sense as training any one specific technique.

Believe me, i've heard that before. I'm a little more cynical about the motive of teaching wrist grabs, however. I think it's just easier to teach, and it's impressive at 20% power. That's why a lot of defensive tactics instructors teach it to police, anyway, to give the impression of teaching a useful technique, without having to actually teach a useful technique. That, and it's low impact, and administrator friendly (meaning, it doesn't look like it will get the city sued).

 

[sgtmac_46]

As others have pointed out, this is more likely when a man is trying to start something with a woman.

However, here's a type of scenario that a lot of people overlook (if it's already been mentioned in the thread, I apologize, I was too lazy to read the whole thread).

In the Filipino martial arts that I train, we primarily train locks as a method of weapon retention - i.e.: the guy grabs your wrist to get control of your weapon or set up for a disarm or whatever. Extrapolating from there leads to a few possible scenarios that come to my mind right off:

I'm reaching for a phone or already have it in hand to call the cops and a guy grabs my wrist to prevent it.

I've got my keys in my hand about to get in my car and a guy grabs my wrist to try to get the keys from my hand - maybe he hits me first (if he's smart) but if the hit doesn't knock me loopy then I may still be able to do something.

A guy could grab my wrist just to try to steal something from my hand - my wallet or money or my watch.

These are just the first that come to my mind. I'm sure there are others in this vein that could happen.

Mike

It's been my theory that there are so many wrists grabs taught in systems like Aikijujutsu and other japanese systems because of the holdover from the samurai period, when attacking the weapon hand to control it, to prevent the drawing of the sword, was common. In that sense, wrist grab training is a bit anachronistic. It's much like the old story about the little girl and the ham.

"A little girl asks her mother, who's preparing for Thanksgiving dinner 'mom, why do you cut the ends off of the ham before putting it in the oven'? Mom responds, 'I don't know, your grandmother always did it that way, so I do to'. So the little girl asks her grandmother the same question. The grandmother responds, 'well, it's the way your great grand mother always did it, so I did it that way, go ask your great grand mother.' So the little girl asks her great grand mother about cutting the ends off of the ham. Great grand mother laughs and says 'well, I don't know why your mother and grand mother do it, but I always did it because my pan was too small to fit the ham in.'"

Not to say that teaching a couple of wrists grabs is a bad idea, but imho spending a lot of valuable training time training wrists grabs is a disservice to those who are expected to use the techniques taught them to defend themselves.

 

[Shu2jack]

I agree with loki09789. From how I was taught wrist escapes as a TKDist, I can apply pretty much the same motions and mechanics to various other defenses.

As far as "real world/street" application, I humbly submit that perhaps not all techniques and defenses are meant for "hard core street violence" use. They could be used as such, but the thread seems to focus on extreme violence.

How many of us have had "friends" being jerks and messing with you? At school, you would get in trobule for hitting someone, but if the teacher isn't looking some kids would grab your wrist to try to intimidate you. How many of us have been in situations where the "attacker's" intentions did not warrent a total butt-kicking, but you had to do something to get them off of you?

I guess what I am trying to say is that not all techniques are appropiate for all situations and violence levels. I think someone who is trying to kill me would employ a more effective method to neutralize my defenses other than a wrist grab. Someone who isn't trying to cause me serious harm, but has other motives or intimidation in mind would probably be more likly to use a wrist grab. We shouldn't train solely for the worst-case situation!

 

[RRouuselot]

The way I see it is if the attacker has gotten close enough to you that they can grab your wrist before you do anything your have already screwed up.

 

[pesilat]

It's been my theory that there are so many wrists grabs taught in systems like Aikijujutsu and other japanese systems because of the holdover from the samurai period, when attacking the weapon hand to control it, to prevent the drawing of the sword, was common. In that sense, wrist grab training is a bit anachronistic. It's much like the old story about the little girl and the ham.

"A little girl asks her mother, who's preparing for Thanksgiving dinner 'mom, why do you cut the ends off of the ham before putting it in the oven'? Mom responds, 'I don't know, your grandmother always did it that way, so I do to'. So the little girl asks her grandmother the same question. The grandmother responds, 'well, it's the way your great grand mother always did it, so I did it that way, go ask your great grand mother.' So the little girl asks her great grand mother about cutting the ends off of the ham. Great grand mother laughs and says 'well, I don't know why your mother and grand mother do it, but I always did it because my pan was too small to fit the ham in.'"

Not to say that teaching a couple of wrists grabs is a bad idea, but imho spending a lot of valuable training time training wrists grabs is a disservice to those who are expected to use the techniques taught them to defend themselves.

I agree completely that they can be overemphasize them - and I've seen classes that do just that. But I think they do have a valid place in training.

Mike

 

[pesilat]

The way I see it is if the attacker has gotten close enough to you that they can grab your wrist before you do anything your have already screwed up.

LOL. Looks good on paper and, in theory, I agree with you. But try to keep people from getting that close while shopping for a Christmas gift in the holiday bustle at your local mall.

A lot of situations like that can be avoided - i.e.: do your Christmas shopping in July. But it's not always possible. I've walked down the sidewalk in various cities - San Francisco and Chicago come first to mind - where the pedestrian traffic was high enough that it was impossible to keep everyone out of my personal space. And I was just walking to work or shopping ... there was nothing extraordinary about those days that drew crowds, they were just average days.

And when I was in China last year ... good lord! Not only were there people everywhere pretty much all the time, they have no concept of personal space - at least not in the same way we do here in the States. And they often gave me wide berth (by their standards) because I was a big redheaded white demon But by my standards, they were practically riding in my hip pocket even when they were doing their best to give me room.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

I am interested in knowing what people think about an opponent grabbing your right wrist with his right hand. Do "cross hand" grabs like this happen much in real world fights?

Without reading everyones responses, I would say wrist grabs do not happened the way they do in a fight as they are generally practiced in a training environment.

However, there is validity in training "from a wrist grab." It helps teach the student how to move and spacial relationship with an opponent...the wrist grab gives you a good reference point, which is very useful for breaking down and learning techniques. There is a lot of wisdom in training from the wrist grab for building long term skills...

Paul

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Thanks for providing a very interesting discussion on this topic.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I agree completely that they can be overemphasize them - and I've seen classes that do just that. But I think they do have a valid place in training.

Mike

My problem isn't so much that wrist grabs may have a place in training, but that, just as you've said, some systems seem to overemphasize them to the point of being ridiculous. Like I said earlier, it's a running joke among my collegues that if we go to a seminar, and we hear "grab my wrist", we'll walk out the door.

 

[Nanalo74]

My problem isn't so much that wrist grabs may have a place in training, but that, just as you've said, some systems seem to overemphasize them to the point of being ridiculous. Like I said earlier, it's a running joke among my collegues that if we go to a seminar, and we hear "grab my wrist", we'll walk out the door.

LOL! I'm with you brother! Sure they have their place in training, but the way they are introduced and trained a lot of times is very unrealistic.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[sgtmac_46]

LOL! I'm with you brother! Sure they have their place in training, but the way they are introduced and trained a lot of times is very unrealistic.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

Didn't figure I was the only one who felt that way about the wrist grab. I must have been taught a couple thousand ways to escape a wrist grab in my life, and the only time i've seen a wrist grabbed like that is when someone says "grab my wrist". That's usually followed by "not with that hand, with the other hand". Then, when it's finally sorted out which hand is grabbing which wrist, we get to see some very dramatic and impressive (static) technique to escape it. I always break out in to hysterical laughter anytime I see a wrist grab technique now days. But, having reflected on it, I guess I shouldn't make so much fun as I suppose wrist grab techniques do have a role.


Hey, by the way.....grab my wrist