Do cross hand grabs to the wrist happen much in real fights?

[mj-hi-yah]

I was at a seminar a year or so ago where a trad karate practitioner was explaining kata applications. He pointed out that a lot of hidden moves in forms/kata were actually techniques againt wrist grabs and explained that the grab was the opponent's defence to a very direct and pragmatic throat, eye or testicle grab by the karate practitioner (omitted from the form as being too obvious a defence to need training).

I liked the explanation, a soft tissue strike as an intial reaction to a threat or opening in the guard, followed by a counter if the opponent grabs the wrist. Made more sense to me than waiting for an attacker to come up and hold one's hand, and also seems a good way of drawing an opponent into a position where a wrist lock can be applied...

Whatever the merits of the kata interpretation (I liked it) it made me view wrist grabs in a new light.

Respectfully,

Dan

Good post Dan, this makes a lot of sense to me.

MJ :asian:

 

[Loki]

In response to the original question, don't think so. I've never been in or witnessed a street fight, but it just doesn't seem practical. Maybe to grab a girl, as some people suggested, but this already makes knowledge for such cases a thing that should (and does) exist.

~ Loki

 

[RRouuselot]

That is an interesting interpretation Dan G. Again, it reminds me of the FMA where we think of it as someone countering a stick strike by grabbing the wrist.

or maybe someone grabbing your wrist after you tried to punch them.....

 

[white belt]

or maybe someone grabbing your wrist after you tried to punch them.....

Another good point. Watching Pride, U.F.C., etc. for many years I have seen grabs to the arms when striking goes to the clinch. When up against the fence or ropes it happens frequently. Renzo Gracie tried to escape a STANDING armbar being performed by Sakuraba and had his shoulder dislocated for his efforts (Pride no.?). That gripping pattern, though not frontal or cross, involves securing the wrist of someone attacking from the rear with a torso hug. These arm and wrist locks are in Karate and TKD patterns. Also, I did not see the fight but, didn't Royce Gracie recently submit and defeat a Sumo wrestler, on the ground, using a wristlock?

white belt

 

[Nanalo74]

Another good point. Watching Pride, U.F.C., etc. for many years I have seen grabs to the arms when striking goes to the clinch. When up against the fence or ropes it happens frequently. Renzo Gracie tried to escape a STANDING armbar being performed by Sakuraba and had his shoulder dislocated for his efforts (Pride no.?). That gripping pattern, though not frontal or cross, involves securing the wrist of someone attacking from the rear with a torso hug. These arm and wrist locks are in Karate and TKD patterns. Also, I did not see the fight but, didn't Royce Gracie recently submit and defeat a Sumo wrestler, on the ground, using a wristlock?

white belt

The cross-hand grab being discussed in this thread is the scenario used in many a martial arts demonstration wherein someone walks up to another person, reaches out with their right hand and grabs the other person's right wrist. This situation rarely, if ever, actually happens in real life.
What you are describing is a clinch or grappling situation. In that case wristlocks, armlocks, leglocks and various other grabs and holds are the norm.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[white belt]

The book titled "75 down blocks", authored by Rick Clark, is very descriptive to frequency of grabs and types happening in daily law enforcement. On pages 15-18 stats are given. Weaponless assaults against law enforcement (Federal) between the years 1978-2000 total 82.72 % of all assaults. 73.29 % of those assaults were grabs NOT strikes. Further broken down, the grabs in order of highest incidence first were : 1)-Wrist 2)-Forearm 3)-Upper arm 4)Lapel 5) Throat. Can't be anymore plain than that.

Talking to people I know, that have been in scuffles in the past, they relate that in very close or confined quarters they have had to deal with clinch / grabs to their arms. I experienced this myself. These were non-law enforcement related.

Hope this helps,
white belt

P.S.
Ref: Federal stats. in Mr. Clark's book. The cross hand wrist grab was second only to the same side wrist grab. 3RD was the double wrist grab.

 

[arnisador]

Well, more often than I thought then. Of course, LEOs are a special case.

 

[Nanalo74]

Well, more often than I thought then. Of course, LEOs are a special case.

LEOs can answer this better than I can, but the guys I know who are on the job say that the majority of the time when their wrists are grabbed it's because their hand is on their weapon and the badguy is trying to take it, or stop them from drawing.

Vic www.combatartusa.com

 

[arnisador]

Yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking--reaching for a sidearm or swinging a baton or rasing mace or something, or maybe even just while trying to cuff somebody (and so in close proximity to them).

 

[Cruentus]

The book titled "75 down blocks", authored by Rick Clark, is very descriptive to frequency of grabs and types happening in daily law enforcement. On pages 15-18 stats are given. Weaponless assaults against law enforcement (Federal) between the years 1978-2000 total 82.72 % of all assaults. 73.29 % of those assaults were grabs NOT strikes. Further broken down, the grabs in order of highest incidence first were : 1)-Wrist 2)-Forearm 3)-Upper arm 4)Lapel 5) Throat. Can't be anymore plain than that.

Talking to people I know, that have been in scuffles in the past, they relate that in very close or confined quarters they have had to deal with clinch / grabs to their arms. I experienced this myself. These were non-law enforcement related.

Hope this helps,
white belt

P.S.
Ref: Federal stats. in Mr. Clark's book. The cross hand wrist grab was second only to the same side wrist grab. 3RD was the double wrist grab.

Yea...but reagardless of stats and sources, clinches in a fight simply are not the old "grab my wrist..." stuff that happends in most MA classes. Wrist grabs happened, but the difference is in how they happened. The how can be a night and day difference from the training floor to the street, depending on where you train.

I think that is what people are saying here.

 

[white belt]

Agreed. Comfy confines, with a willing partner, wont prepare someone who is just going through the motions. That is true with any self defense situation. I'm seeing that point being hinted at repeatedly in this discussion. If an Instructor is teaching students to just slap on a wristlock, after a grab, without any percussive technique to help set it up first, that is a huge mistake. What makes a technique seem impractical, in some cases, is how it is taught, not just the frequency of such attacks. Dropping to the ground in a guard position isn't my first choice when someone takes a swing at me but, it is still useful if tackled onto ones back. I am familiar with enough examples that teaching a few good responses to wrist grabs is a good thing in the case of a messy clinch. The wrist grab doesn't always happen at the first point of contact. Neither does a tackle. Both are good to know how to deal with. They both can happen off a clinch. Do I, teach and practice responses to wrist grabs as much as responses to being swung at? No. But, it is a good thing to know. Just like the guard.

white belt

 

[safeeagle]

My thought on this is no it doesn't happen much. Then again, most people who fight don't know how to fight. I believe. The wrist grab is a real skill in itself. Your blocking hand has to come with the punch to some respect. It's difficult.

 

[Nanalo74]

Agreed. Comfy confines, with a willing partner, wont prepare someone who is just going through the motions. That is true with any self defense situation. I'm seeing that point being hinted at repeatedly in this discussion. If an Instructor is teaching students to just slap on a wristlock, after a grab, without any percussive technique to help set it up first, that is a huge mistake. What makes a technique seem impractical, in some cases, is how it is taught, not just the frequency of such attacks. Dropping to the ground in a guard position isn't my first choice when someone takes a swing at me but, it is still useful if tackled onto ones back. I am familiar with enough examples that teaching a few good responses to wrist grabs is a good thing in the case of a messy clinch. The wrist grab doesn't always happen at the first point of contact. Neither does a tackle. Both are good to know how to deal with. They both can happen off a clinch. Do I, teach and practice responses to wrist grabs as much as responses to being swung at? No. But, it is a good thing to know. Just like the guard.

white belt

Agreed. And that was basically the point we were trying to make.
Thanks for the research by the way. I enjoyed that.

Vic www.combatartusa.com

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yea...but reagardless of stats and sources, clinches in a fight simply are not the old "grab my wrist..." stuff that happends in most MA classes. Wrist grabs happened, but the difference is in how they happened. The how can be a night and day difference from the training floor to the street, depending on where you train.

I think that is what people are saying here.

Amen brother..."Grab my wrist" LOLOLOL