Do cross hand grabs to the wrist happen much in real fights?
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agatanai atsilahu
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In a word no. At least thats my experience. I have NEVER seen anyone start an attack by trying to secure their opponents wrist by grabbing. As an attacker is just isnt feasable, as there are far many more viable attacks to do damage. As a defender, perhaps on rare occasions one may be afforded the opportunity to apply a cross grab. In my opinion, any kind of joint manipulation, or lock has to be set up by a combination of events, and/or a grappling type situation, which general is not the initial attack. No offense to anyone but it just isnt practical in my book. When you grab for a limb, you tie up one of your offensive weapons, now I know there are circumstances for everything, and wrist techniques may still be useful to know, but I strongly doubt you'll come across the need to use them if attacked on the street.
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I think anything can happen in a real encounter. Frontally, attacker to the left offset,his right can grab your right very easily...like in walking past you on your right. Coming from the back, if you have just pulled open your rear car door and using your left to open it, your right is back and could be grabbed with the attacker's right as that is the hand commonly used for right-handers. If the attacker gets in your face, close, and you bring up your right hand, it can be grabbed by his right. So, the answer is yes...TW
I agree with TW. Anything can happen and we certainly can't predict what can and can't. Now, is it the most common attack for a man to grab another man on the wrist? Probably not, but again, it could happen. I would say that it may be more common for a man to grab a woman that way.
Mike
Mike
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agatanai atsilahu
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I agree whole heartedly that nothing can be predicted. However I think we can rely on experience, and the wisdom of things seen. So technically maybe it could happen, but I said no because I would tend to dwell on more pertinent possibilities. A squirrel can have a coronary fall from tree and crack you on the cranium, but are what are the chances. I stated that of course train for these things, as all training is valuable to me, better to be prepared for anything, but i stand behind my statement that you likely will never encounter such an attack. By the im just re enforcing my position while trying to clarify it somewhat, please dont see this post as argumentitive or inflammatory, no offense towards anyone 
agatanai atsilahu said:I agree whole heartedly that nothing can be predicted. However I think we can rely on experience, and the wisdom of things seen. So technically maybe it could happen, but I said no because I would tend to dwell on more pertinent possibilities. A squirrel can have a coronary fall from tree and crack you on the cranium, but are what are the chances. I stated that of course train for these things, as all training is valuable to me, better to be prepared for anything, but i stand behind my statement that you likely will never encounter such an attack. By the im just re enforcing my position while trying to clarify it somewhat, please dont see this post as argumentitive or inflammatory, no offense towards anyone
Not a problem and no offense taken! :asian:
I agree..its better to be prepared, than not be. Personally, I would think that there would be many other initiations to an assault rather than a wrist grab. I would still say though that this may be a more common attack against a woman.
Good discussion so far!!! :ultracool
Mike
DarrenJew
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Maybe a woman on a date would get grabbed by the wrist, if the date got a little rough. Or a shopkeeper will grab the wrist of a kid that just pocketed something.
Normally on the street you may find:
I think most confrontations will start with verbal insults and may escalate to fists... if you have a cell phone and want to call the police, a guy may grab your wrist to stop you from calling.
I do not think a mugger will normally grab your wrist... most likely pull a knife or threaten you with something else... ask for your wallet. If the mugger is not in the mood to talk... hed probably try to catch you off guard and maybe blindside you with a punch and kick you a few times while your on the ground, then take what he wants. If you expect to get dragged into an alley and get mugged.. he may grab you coat or sleave, but most likely some type of choke hold I think.
Just some thoughts??? I've never been mugged... and no fights with any wrist grabbing.
Though I've been attack with a chokehold from behind... I ended up bending forwards at the hip and kinda tossed them over my back to break the hold. (It wasn't a mugging situation.... It was because someone heard I took a martial art, and thought they could take me on. "Like sneeking up behind someone and attacking them is a fare fight." I normally, try to keep my art silent just because of things like this. I ended up punching them and now I have a Zero tolerance suite against me.... oh well, it's still in mediation cant really discuss it.)
Normally on the street you may find:
I think most confrontations will start with verbal insults and may escalate to fists... if you have a cell phone and want to call the police, a guy may grab your wrist to stop you from calling.
I do not think a mugger will normally grab your wrist... most likely pull a knife or threaten you with something else... ask for your wallet. If the mugger is not in the mood to talk... hed probably try to catch you off guard and maybe blindside you with a punch and kick you a few times while your on the ground, then take what he wants. If you expect to get dragged into an alley and get mugged.. he may grab you coat or sleave, but most likely some type of choke hold I think.
Just some thoughts??? I've never been mugged... and no fights with any wrist grabbing.
Though I've been attack with a chokehold from behind... I ended up bending forwards at the hip and kinda tossed them over my back to break the hold. (It wasn't a mugging situation.... It was because someone heard I took a martial art, and thought they could take me on. "Like sneeking up behind someone and attacking them is a fare fight." I normally, try to keep my art silent just because of things like this. I ended up punching them and now I have a Zero tolerance suite against me.... oh well, it's still in mediation cant really discuss it.)
sgtmac_46
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Let me put it to you this way...If I go to a defensive tactics class as a police officer, and the first hour is dedicated to ways to escape the cross hand wrist grab, i'll walk out of the door. The "Grab my wrist" defense has become something of a running joke in our training circles. Being a bit of a cynic myself, I tend to think it's so prevelent a training topic because it's easy to impress (see also: Dupe) new people with when it's demonstrated at 20% power. Irregardless, I haven't seen an epidemic of wrist grabbing going on in recent years....Maybe because self-defense instructors have so thoroughly defended us against wrists grabs, that this devastating and effective combat move isn't used anymore (lol).TaiChiTJ said:
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
I think any 'street fight' scenario needs to be consider in terms of likely scenarios: Since I learn TKD with my kids, I tend to think of 'what if' scenarios based on both me as a 35 year old male, and my 12 year old son and 10 year old daughter.
Some I can think of for myself include:
1. Some drunk at night club getting offended at something I do, innocently ( I don't drink much when out playing; I'm married and don't flirt)
2. Random mugging
3. Car accident causing 'road rage' attack
For my kids it includes:
1. Grabbed/abduction attempt by stranger (especially my daughters)
2. Fight with kids their age.
In other words, before asking myself what's likely to happen in a fight, I try to think of how I, or my children, to come to be in a fight. That will probably shape what sort of attacks you are likely to face, I would think
I don't have any experience to say whether wrists grabs would be likely or not. We have learned a few escapes from them in class but I take it mostly as examples in how the body moves and reacts and how to manipulate the body. A wrist grab defense may not be very useful in that you may never be grabbed in an encounter, but I would guess it's a good starting point to learn because it's relatively non-aggresive and can get someone used to the contact needed. (Punches, shoves, kicks, etc...are probably more likely to happen in 'real life' but are also a bit more violent to practice so may be a difficult technique to introduce newbies with)
Just some random thoughts
Some I can think of for myself include:
1. Some drunk at night club getting offended at something I do, innocently ( I don't drink much when out playing; I'm married and don't flirt)
2. Random mugging
3. Car accident causing 'road rage' attack
For my kids it includes:
1. Grabbed/abduction attempt by stranger (especially my daughters)
2. Fight with kids their age.
In other words, before asking myself what's likely to happen in a fight, I try to think of how I, or my children, to come to be in a fight. That will probably shape what sort of attacks you are likely to face, I would think
I don't have any experience to say whether wrists grabs would be likely or not. We have learned a few escapes from them in class but I take it mostly as examples in how the body moves and reacts and how to manipulate the body. A wrist grab defense may not be very useful in that you may never be grabbed in an encounter, but I would guess it's a good starting point to learn because it's relatively non-aggresive and can get someone used to the contact needed. (Punches, shoves, kicks, etc...are probably more likely to happen in 'real life' but are also a bit more violent to practice so may be a difficult technique to introduce newbies with)
Just some random thoughts
The only time this type of situation has ever happened (before I learned martial arts) was when a guy grabbed my right wrist with his right hand and tried to twist my arm back (or what is commonly known in kenpo as a "hammer lock"). I got out by elbowing his head with my free arm and kicking his knee.
Another altercation I saw was a guy grabbing the girl's left wrist with a left cross hand grab and hitting her hard in the head with his right hand. Since the attack was from her "blind" side (happened from the flank side, not from the front), she couldn't defend very well against him that way.
I would have to agree with others that this type of cross hand grabs may not be as common, but happens more with male/female confrontations.
- Ceicei
Another altercation I saw was a guy grabbing the girl's left wrist with a left cross hand grab and hitting her hard in the head with his right hand. Since the attack was from her "blind" side (happened from the flank side, not from the front), she couldn't defend very well against him that way.
I would have to agree with others that this type of cross hand grabs may not be as common, but happens more with male/female confrontations.
- Ceicei
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
I live in New Mexico. High rates of domestic violence. I would agree it would seem more likely between male-female if the male is trying to force the female to do something or go someplace she doesn't want
One reason I have my daughters in class.
One reason I have my daughters in class.
These incidents that happened with me and my friends were in Albuquerque, New Mexico (my childhood state). That said, I don't think the Southwest has a claim on domestic violence rate. Utah's domestic violence is pretty much a "hidden dirty laundry". Nobody really wants to talk about the issue here. This would be another issue for a different thread.FearlessFreep said:
Now back to cross hand grabs....
- Ceicei
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
TaiChiTJ said:
Have I seen it happen? No.
Could it happen? Maybe.
I don't see many fights where the guy has a chance to kick to the head but I train to defend against it too.
PatMunk
Yellow Belt
I'm not going to say that the cross hand wrist grab is going to be a common attack... BUT ... practicing techniques for that is very important to our training. Let's look at someone trying to hit us with a right punch or right hand push. If you step to the outside of the striking/pushing arm and parry with the left and then continue with an outward blocking motion with the right hand and grab the attackers wrist, what do you have?
You have put yourself in a position where both of your right hands are in contact. It is the same position you would be in if it was a cross hand wrist grab and the follow up will work the same way.
Cross hand wrist grabs might not be the attack of preference for an attacker but we can use the defense for a cross hand wrist grab for most anything that comes at us from any position that puts our right or left hands in contact with the opponents right or left hand.
So I say learn cross hand defenses to be used within your techniques for other attacks as well.
Pat Munk, Shichidan
Tracy's Kenpo Karate
You have put yourself in a position where both of your right hands are in contact. It is the same position you would be in if it was a cross hand wrist grab and the follow up will work the same way.
Cross hand wrist grabs might not be the attack of preference for an attacker but we can use the defense for a cross hand wrist grab for most anything that comes at us from any position that puts our right or left hands in contact with the opponents right or left hand.
So I say learn cross hand defenses to be used within your techniques for other attacks as well.
Pat Munk, Shichidan
Tracy's Kenpo Karate
I used to kind of question this too. Then a tragedy happened in our area that was caught on security camera.
In the Portland, Oregon area, about a year ago or so, a teenage girl was walking home from school, cutting across a parking lot when a man walking the opposite way stepped into her path directly in front of her, grabbed her right wrist with his right hand, said something to her, transferred the grip to his left hand and continued walking with her at his side, in his grip, in the direction she was walking.
She was abducted, raped and murdered.
My daughter's first reaction upon seeing the incident, "Ohmygod, I can get out of that!" She thought it was a training tape. A few moments later when she realized it was a news broadcast she was floored. She actually just sat down where she was. So did I.
I agree with other real-worldists here and say anything ... anything ... can happen.
In the Portland, Oregon area, about a year ago or so, a teenage girl was walking home from school, cutting across a parking lot when a man walking the opposite way stepped into her path directly in front of her, grabbed her right wrist with his right hand, said something to her, transferred the grip to his left hand and continued walking with her at his side, in his grip, in the direction she was walking.
She was abducted, raped and murdered.
My daughter's first reaction upon seeing the incident, "Ohmygod, I can get out of that!" She thought it was a training tape. A few moments later when she realized it was a news broadcast she was floored. She actually just sat down where she was. So did I.
I agree with other real-worldists here and say anything ... anything ... can happen.
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Agreeing with Drac, the reason I talked abuot scenarios is that I think that for different people and different kinds of people, fights may happen for many different reasons and, as such, hard to say what will really happen
You may be forgetting two things:
First a right to right wrist grab is much less "cross body" if both attacker and defender are in bladded stances.
Also, in a weapons engagement, wrist grabs are much more common for both trained and untrained. Speaking of real world experience...I too have not seen many wrist grabs in unarmed confrontations, but I have seen a ton when things like baseball bats, pieces of wood etc. come into play. Certainly when two people struggle over control of the weapon, there are a lot of wrist grabs. It can also be found used as a first line of defense by attempting to jam and grab the weapon arm before they are able to attack with it.
Happens all the time in weapons sparring too...although that is not a direct judge of reality of course.
First a right to right wrist grab is much less "cross body" if both attacker and defender are in bladded stances.
Also, in a weapons engagement, wrist grabs are much more common for both trained and untrained. Speaking of real world experience...I too have not seen many wrist grabs in unarmed confrontations, but I have seen a ton when things like baseball bats, pieces of wood etc. come into play. Certainly when two people struggle over control of the weapon, there are a lot of wrist grabs. It can also be found used as a first line of defense by attempting to jam and grab the weapon arm before they are able to attack with it.
Happens all the time in weapons sparring too...although that is not a direct judge of reality of course.
RBaddorf
Green Belt
http://www.skfriends.com/kvz/dirrer/movies/carlie-brucia-video/020104-edit.MOV
The actual abduction.
I had a guy grab me by the wrist when I was walking down Magsaisai Street, and try to pull me into an alley...his wrist broke.
A drunk grabbed my training partners wrist in a bar because the drunk thought Mark's change from our beers was his (the drunk's). Bar tender jumped on the guy while Mark was waiting to see if things needed to be escalated or not.
Granted, it don't happen often... but it does happen.
Ron
The actual abduction.
I had a guy grab me by the wrist when I was walking down Magsaisai Street, and try to pull me into an alley...his wrist broke.
A drunk grabbed my training partners wrist in a bar because the drunk thought Mark's change from our beers was his (the drunk's). Bar tender jumped on the guy while Mark was waiting to see if things needed to be escalated or not.
Granted, it don't happen often... but it does happen.
Ron
