- Thread Starter
- #41
Am I using a dolyo chagi chamber for a yeop chagi here? (VIDEO)=
- Thread starter Acronym
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- Thread Starter
- #42
Yup. but you're still wrong that it's not in their basics.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
I am not slugging it out with anyone. Only expressing my experience and specifically what your own videos show.
I will not argue whether KKW teaches full rotation or not; I have already given you the KKW website link and it is indisputable. Our 9th Dan KKW (and other) certified Korean instructor teaches about a 45° rotation.
https://www.mastershinonline.com/
I have much more experience in WT/Olympic sparring. I never competed in Poomsae at other than local tournaments. If a school teaches full rotation that is fine as long as they are teaching a full curriculum and the inherent upside/downside to over-rotation.
We look at the mechanics on a person to person basis. If they make correct, accurate powerful kicks without needing to over-rotate all is good. Again, it depends on the intent.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Okay? That is a completely different kick. Very different hips, totally different extension. One is a linear kick one is a torsional kick.
Look, I am not arguing with you. I am trying to help you understand the differences.
- Thread Starter
- #46
Your link does not state the parameters according to yourself, only various pictures. My best guess is that your instructor is old school and passes on how he learned it back in the day.
This doesn't surprise me at all, which is also why I made the point of saying modern KKW.
- Thread Starter
- #47
I was referring to with regards to KKW vs ITF difference and that these extend beyond just the dolyo chagi and is also evident in the side kick mechanics.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
What is your rub with 'old school'? Funny.
Enlighten us with your new school experience. I am pretty sure I can hold my own on the experience scale.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Okay. Do you understand the difference between a linear kick and a torsional kick?
- Thread Starter
- #50
Yes? There is overrotation going in both according to old school standards. That doesn't mean that they are the same kicks
- Thread Starter
- #51
I did old school (ITF), which is why I don't have a dog in this fight.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
dvcochran
Grandmaster
But you are accusing me of old school technique? ITF was founded in 1955, Kukkiwon in 1972 (WT(F) came a year later). So you are surely 'older school' than I am.
C'mon man.
- Thread Starter
- #54
Stiff hips aren't suddenly flexible by rotating 180 degrees. If the hips don't get more flexible, the power won't add either by rotating more.
- Thread Starter
- #55
A lot of masters transitioning to KKW came from ITF, founded in 1966, which was black listed in Korea in the 70s.
Earl Weiss
Senior Master
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Acronym- Sir, you need to re examine your premise and the text at post #5 (see ittem 6 in the text copied and pasted) . The text shown is for the ITF / Chang Hon Dollyo Chagi which is for a target to the "Side Front" as opposed to the "Side Turning Kick" (Yop Dollyo Chagi) which has the target to the front (Where a sparring opponent would normally be) so another 45 degrees +/- is needed although the text says stationary foot is 75 degrees outward - whatever that means. As with many things - length of stances, angles etc. these are guidelines which my vary depending on the physical attributes of the practitioner.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Thank goodness your later videos were in normal time! It's super hard to tell from those "slow motion" videos what's going on (they aren't really slow motion, just normal speed with delays inserted between each - so kinda pseudo-slow-motion).
I would say you aren't chambering enough when doing a side kick. The turning of the standing foot is easy when you get the chamber right.
Modern Kukkiwon Taekwondo doesn't have the chamber for a side kick going to the front, I've only seen one person actually do it that way - Grandmaster Kang, Ik-Pil. Granted he's a super high level grandmaster and world famous instructor, but pretty much every other Kukkiwon instructor chambers to the side of the body.
I would say you aren't chambering enough when doing a side kick. The turning of the standing foot is easy when you get the chamber right.
Modern Kukkiwon Taekwondo doesn't have the chamber for a side kick going to the front, I've only seen one person actually do it that way - Grandmaster Kang, Ik-Pil. Granted he's a super high level grandmaster and world famous instructor, but pretty much every other Kukkiwon instructor chambers to the side of the body.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
You are correct on the year (I saw that I fat fingered earlier and typed 1955). I suppose you could say the ITF was black listed. Choi had a rather dubious history (criminal dealings) back in the Chung Do Kwan days and his Kwan (Oh Do Kwan) was not considered when the Kwan's were outlawed/disbanded and unified under the WT(F)/ Kukkiwon banner. Many of the Kwan's still exist in a historical form.
There is a lot of chatter that the ITF may join with WT. They have been competing in the Olympic format for several years.
Good thing or bad thing? I think bad if it means loosing techniques. Good as far as unification and solidifying the TKD style.
- Thread Starter
- #59
Yeah but why should I? A tighter chamber is more time consuming and telegraphed, and it doesn't make my form any worse or better, just more or less pronounced.
Not so... Grandmaster Woo teacher front chamber
andyjeffries
Senior Master
It does so at the expense of power and often height. Those may not be important for what you're using for (maybe sparring), but they are normally how they're used in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.
OK, so there are two things I'd like to discuss here.
When I said "Kukkiwon instructor" I didn't just mean "Instructors of Kukkiwon-style Taekwondo", but I meant official Kukkiwon Instructors - those that teach on the master instructor and poom/dan examiner courses. Considered by the Kukkiwon to be the best of the best.
Secondly, most instructors advocate when demonstrating/learning step-by-step putting the knee forward first. However, when doing it fast/full speed, they don't actually do that. For very good reason, you throw momentum forward to bring it back (when rotating to chamber) only to then try to throw it forward again. So conservation of momentum gives a good reason for not going forward-side-kick, only going side-kick. We've stopped teaching this way in our club because it is actually needless.
If you watch Grandmaster Woo's video, go to any of the full speed kicks (about 2:55 onwards) and pause the video. Then use the comma and full-stop/period buttons (same keys as < and >) to go frame-by-frame, you'll see it's performed differently to how it's done when performed step-by-step.
Almost all Taekwondo side kick videos are the same - when done step by step it's knee to the front, then rotate to the side and then kick. Then you watch the fast ones, go frame-by-frame and notice they don't actually go to the front, but rather rotate quickly and take their knee through and straight to the chamber position.
However, if you then watch Grandmaster Kang, Ik-Pil's video, you'll see that he actually does it the same way as he teaches - forward first. However, he doesn't advocate getting as tight a chamber as most other Kukkiwon instructors (and international masters). He prefers to go for pure linear momentum than the rotation to chamber and extension.
I've discussed this with many grandmasters and masters, and they 99% (GM Kang aside) say the same thing - forward, rotate, kick. Then I show them a video in slow motion of them doing it and get a "oh yeah, it doesn't actually go forward". I've had this conversation in English and Korean (I'm a lower-advanced in Korean), the same every time.
Here's another video that shows it step by step (going forward) then in slow motion during an actual kick and the knee never goes forward:
Hope this helps explain.
