Am I using a dolyo chagi chamber for a yeop chagi here? (VIDEO)=

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Notice how the Karateka can't get off with his kicks at all.

    Oh and that Taekwondo guy had a great lead side kick:)
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Probably. Seems like something I need to be around good training partners for, and probably need some competent coaching/instruction.
     
  3. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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  4. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Not directed to me, First I would repeat what General Choi says in his texts. went something like this when it addressed 3 main types of attacks, (Pierce, Thrust, Strike) although there are more than those 3 such as push, "The lines of distinction are not always clear" (Note- quote is from memory and may not be exact. ) Now to the video. IMO most of the kicks show thatthe bag "Folds" at the point of impact. This would not be characteristic of a "Push" in the Chang Hon System. where "Pushing" techniques are used to "Off Balance" (I would also add "Displace") the Attacker.
     
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  5. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    His acceleration point is very late, almost right before penetration. He looks to be is in danger town of a push, rather than a thrust, every blow.
     
  6. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Here are dolyo chagis with no acceleration (same speed beginning to end). It cannot generate significant power

     
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  7. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Please define how you use the terms "Push" and "Thrust".
     
  8. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Please explain "Significant" as far as what purpose is to be accomplished.
     
  9. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    I wouldn't describe it as so, because for me his foot accelerates to the target, rather than be put on the target then accelerate. You later say that the acceleration point is very late, that may be because of the gentleman's age that you view it that way. Taekwondo is a lifetime pursuit and you can't judge all students to the standard of a 20-something.

    However, that said, it's an ITF kick and I'm viewing it with Kukkiwon eyes.
     
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  10. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I watched it in real time and it seemed to be accelerating.

    If you pause the video in YouTube and hit "." you can go forward frame-by-frame. It takes 10 frames for the kick to reach inline with his standing leg (considering that half way) and 6 frames to go from there to impact. Therefore, it's accelerating.

    Again, I think you may be judging him with both inexperienced eyes and based on viewing younger athletes.
     
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  11. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    He's wearing a KKW or Tang Soo Do type dobok.
     
  12. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I have seen quite a few kickers in my time. He could practise those on me without a shield. There is little to no acceleration.
     
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  13. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    If you look at his YouTube channel for other videos, he uses the term "tul" not poomsae, and the patterns listed are ITF ones. In Kukkiwon Taekwondo we only have a "Side kick" and it would be weird to describe it as a "Side piercing/thrust kick", it's just a side kick.

    It may not be an official ITF dobok, but it's definitely not a KKW one.
     
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  14. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Ok but It's definitely not an ITF dobok. Whatever he's affiliated with, it's not ITF directly.
     
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  15. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    Without wishing to get in to a political debate, which ITF are you referring to? You seem to be referring to ITF as a single organisation, and it hasn't been that way since the death of General Choi (as I'd have predicted if asked before that event).

    Do all ITF headquarters require the same dobok (bearing in mind multiple groups all called "ITF" at this point)? What about ITF national associations, do they all require the same dobok?

    Regardless, you'll note I didn't say he was a member of the ITF (under Paul Weiler), the ITF (under Ri Yong Son), the ITF (under Oh Chang Jin) or any other ITF group. I said it was an ITF kick, not a Kukkiwon one, so I'm not 100% qualified to judge if it was a thrust, piercing, pushing, whatever. GM @Earl Weiss would be better placed to judge that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
  16. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    All of them. ITF doboks regardless of which one it is, does not come with a black collar.

    Btw, why doesn't the KKW distinguish between a thrusting and piercing side kick?
     
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  17. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master of Arts

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    For me, likely because the use case covered by a thrusting kick is already covered by a traditional push kick or a cut kick. But to be honest, it feels to me just as weird as would thinking "why does ITF need two different almost identical variations of a side kick".

    I think there's a point where we all have to just accept that ITF and KKW are two branches of a martial art, similar in history, different in practice. Like Tennis and Badminton. To try to think of a conscious decision reason "why does X not have Y" is an exercise in futility. Just my opinion though.
     
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  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    The bolded part. That really sums it up to me. I describe it as “impacting” the target. People like to claim that this or that kick is just a push. Well, any kick can be done as a push or as an impacting strike. Any kick is not automatically either. It depends on how it is delivered.
     
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  19. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I could not disagree more, if we are talking about kicking basics. It is completely arbitrary whether my studied examples are of KKW or ITF branding. There’s a bigger variance within practioners of KKW and ITF than between them. You are just as qualified evaluating ITF hip mechanics as KKW, since it's by and large the same.
     
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  20. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Um, No. He is wearing a Gi style not a Dobak style. I agree with Andy Jefferies, it is an ITF kick. Nothing wrong at all with that.123
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2020
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