A sad state of affairs...

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by Hanzou, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Depends on the BJJ school. The first BJJ school I went to did NO takedowns. All of it was starting from the knees position. The second BJJ school I went to starting all of it sparring from the feet and worked on getting the takedown before the ground game.
     
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  2. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I have zero BJJ experience, so I could be and probably am way off here, but if I was teaching ground fighting, the first thing I’d teach is how to get someone on the ground. Reliably too. My first “stripe” would be all takedowns, throws, falling, etc. Get past that, then here’s what to do.
     
  3. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    If you're teaching ground fighting, it's a good idea to actually teach ground fighting. If you want to spend 3-4 months learning nothing but throws and takedowns, you take Judo.

    Here's a fundamentals curriculum schedule from a Relson Gracie affiliate (only one I can find online for some reason) where they show what every white belt is taught:

    http://www.gracieohio.com/wp-conten...mentals-curriculum-schedule-june-aug-2018.jpg
     
  4. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I see what you’re saying, but why not thoroughly teach how to get someone to the ground before you teach them what to do once they’re there? Work the clinch, standing grappling basics, and takedowns and throws first. Then get on the ground. In the whole grand scheme of things, 3-4 months isn’t that long. Or shorten it to 2-3 months.

    I’ve got no issues with kneeling starts. Or sitting or even laying down starts. Those are situational drills, and they take away some daily pounding on the body.

    Again, zero BJJ experience, so I’m sure I’m messing it up. When we teach new wrestlers, we always teach a takedown or 2 before we teach pinning combinations. How are you going to pin someone if you can’t take him down?
     
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  5. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    If you check out the curriculum, you are taught that in that period. However, the majority of what you're taught is fighting from the guard, dealing with side control, and how to escape bad positions. You're not going to be better at throws or takedowns than wrestlers and Judoka, but you'll be more than capable of taking down or throwing the average person. We make up for being worse at throws and takedowns by being better on the ground. I was tapping brown and black belt judo players as an advanced blue belt, that's how advanced BJJ ground grappling is. However, its foolish to not believe that there's not extensive cross-training going on between the major grappling systems and MMA. My old BJJ school offered Judo classes taught by a 5th dan Black belt for example.

    I have issues with kneeling starts, and Tony stated them better than I could.

    The point is that you should be able to take people down. The problem is that sport Bjj is a huge money maker for schools, and guard pulling and jumping guard are stupidly efficient and effective takedowns. That's the go-to for any BJJ player that has to deal with a better stand-up grappler, and bjj sport rules completely facilitate it.

    That Relson school I linked to is probably getting murdered money wise by the sport-based BJJ schools in the area.
     
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  6. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Tony makes very good points about the kneeling start, which I agree with. But it’s not all bad. If both people are proficient in throws and takedowns and defense of them, and they’re still practicing them regularly, than kneeling and the like starts aren’t inherently bad IMO. We didn’t start on our feet every time in wrestling. We’d put the guys into neutral-ish and common positions to start often enough. But we also did plenty of takedown practice. Part of warmups pretty much always consisted of takedowns. Or we’d go right into a takedown competition as the beginning of practice - get 2 points for the takedown and restart.

    So long as you’re consistently doing takedowns, there’s no problem with starting other ways too. Again, I’m a wrestler, so I’m seeing it through that lens.
     
  7. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Said the guy extrapolating the state of bjj from one video. :rolleyes:
     
  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Should BJJ guys train kick, punch, throw as well? It's up to you whether you want to be just a BJJ guy, or whether you want to be a MMA guy.

    Here is a question. Should you go to

    - boxing school to learn boxing,
    - wrestling school to learn wrestling,
    - BJJ school to learn BJJ,

    you then integrate everything all by yourself, or should your MA teacher help you to do that integration?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  9. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    That's pretty hilarious considering that bjj's dominance in competition sparked a huge quest in every traditional style to prove their art was complete.

    Everyone missed the fact that mixed martial arts are mixed and if karate sux because bjj guys take them down easily, then so does boxing and every other striking art.
     
  10. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    The first class I took with Relson was in ninety five at the University of Hawaii. At the time there was a waiting list to train there. We were allowed to take the class as guests. I remember the very first thing we did, which we did for most of the class that particular night, standing grapple and take downs.

    We were only in Honolulu for four months while our dogs went through the quarantine process. Didn't have time to be on a waiting list, so we took privates in Relson's garage. He is one of the nicest people I've ever met in Martial Arts. And I am the luckiest son of a B I've ever known.

    I hope his schools are doing well. They're as good as any dojo I've ever been in.
     
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  11. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Seriously, who have you not trained with??
     
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  12. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Me. But then again, I’m nobody, so it’s all good :)
     
  13. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Me too, for the same reason :D
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    The belief that BJJ lacks takedowns has been a growing belief for quite some time. My attitude towards this isnt coming from one video.
     
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    - Most BJJ guys like to use "pull guard" to by pass the throwing skill training.
    - Some wrestlers like to use "rhino guard" to by pass the striking skill training.

    Both short cut approaches are not good for the long term MA development.
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    To be fair, high end sport Bjj players have little problem taking people down. Heck, Ryan Hall's takedown game is so high percentage that fighters are avoiding him in the UFC.
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Which take down move does he like to use? All he will need is just a good one.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  18. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    I believe that it is a variation of the Imanari roll that goes into the 50/50 guard, but dont quote me on that.

    Here's some examples:

     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Now I understand why BJJ uses the term "take down" instead of "throw". I think BJJ take down is different from Judo throw.
     
  20. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Wrestling uses the both terms takedowns and throws. Stuff like single and double leg, and ankle picks are takedowns; things like suplexes and arm spin are throws. Depends on how you get the opponent down to the ground/mat. BJJ May have more what’s considered takedowns than throws, but I don’t know.
     

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