A sad state of affairs...

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by Hanzou, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Not necessarily. There are Judo throws in old school Bjj, however, in more recent years Wrestling, Sombo, MMA, and competitive Bjj have kind of flooded out old school Judo throws because of no-gi grappling. Essentially, to be competitive in MMA and sport Bjj you need less technical throws. Because of that Judo throws have kind of taken a backseat to the more fluid (and generally easier) wrestling/sombo throws and takedowns.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,546
    Likes Received:
    4,030
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    As I use the terms, a "takedown" is any grappling move which gets the opponent to the ground, while a "throw" is any move which picks the opponent into the air and then slams him to the ground. All throws are takedowns, but not all takedowns are throws.

    Judo places more emphasis on throws, because the ideal is to slam an opponent into the ground so hard that they would be incapacitated if they were on a hard surface rather than a mat.

    BJJ places more emphasis on just getting to the ground in the easiest way possible, because the ideal is to finish the opponent on the ground.

    That said, BJJ has plenty of throws and Judo has plenty of techniques I would classify as takedowns rather than throws.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    23,591
    Likes Received:
    6,938
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I've always drawn a rather vague and greyish line between the terms by thinking of a takedown as staying connected on the way down (single-leg), versus a throw that is less connected (kote gaeshi). I tend to take that from the term takedown - meaning you take them with you. It's relevant to BJJ, because you're more likely to want to keep that connection on the way, I'd think.

    But that's just my take. I'm not sure whether it matches any common usage.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    3,568
    Likes Received:
    1,032
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Not sure my usage is any more common, given a leg sweep can be a takedown...
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    23,591
    Likes Received:
    6,938
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I apply either to a leg sweep (we use that term for Judo's osoto gari and similar techniques), because the person being swept can determine whether the technique is a throw or a takedown - so we train it as both. I had someone grab tight during one at a school I was visiting, so I converted it to a takedown and finished with a ground submission.
     
  6. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    5,070
    Likes Received:
    3,111
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    In the dojo
    I see what you’re saying, but I don’t agree. In a judo throw, the throwing judoka keeps constant contact with the opponent, maintains full control, and lands with him (that doesn’t mean landing on his back too). That doesn’t mean it’s gentle. The key is that control so he can follow up as necessary. If a judoka let go during a throw, I’m pretty sure no points would be given, and certainly no ippon would be awarded. Probably a warning and/or penalty of some sort too.

    The way you’re describing the difference, to me, sounds like a WWF body slam instead of, say, a Greco-Roman suplex. Alexander Karolin didn’t let go of any of his opponents when he suplexed them (if he did it wasn’t intentional and/or he was penalized). It was definitely a quite hard landing and a throw IMO.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    23,591
    Likes Received:
    6,938
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    My distinction isn't hold or let go - it's tight connection (which means you probably have to move down at least partway with them, as with the typical application in Judo) or a loose connection, like kote gaeshi. It's a vague distinction I've really only found useful when discussing the difference in follow-through. Some techniques can be either, sometimes (as in the example of the leg sweep) determined by the action of the person being thrown/taken down. It's not about gentle or not - just whether there's a body connection throughout that means nage (person doing the throw) is also going down, even if it's to a knee. Just a literal use of "takedown" as in "take them down with you" as opposed to "throw" as in "throw them down".

    So, as you point out, most judo throws would be termed takedowns in my usage, as they are applied. And I'm not really consistent in the usage, except when I'm drawing the distinction between the two.
     
  8. FriedRice

    FriedRice Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2010
    Messages:
    1,291
    Likes Received:
    131
    Trophy Points:
    103
    Location:
    san jose

    This is actually pretty easy to pull off. Most BJJ only people can't take punches to the face. This demo rarely happens because most BJJ'ers wouldn't subject themselves to this and be embarrassed. And this Boxer was clearly pulling the power.....if he was going hard, he'd knock them out. And with MMA gloves on, it would be much worse for the BJJ'er. And this Boxer is said to be an Instructor there....so he probably also trains BJJ or MMA.....and knows his TD defense.....so the BJJ'ers were respecting this + it's a promo video to prove their point...marketing the Boxer.

    While in MMA, this is one of the better techniques to keep a grappler away.....good boxing, footwork, lots of striking while moving backwards & circling. This is how I keep the fight standing as I'm 70% striker. It's so much more effective with MMA gloves b/c a jab hurts so much more.

    Granted that I'm comfortable with getting clinched/TD and can see the TD attempts, so I can take more chances & be more effective.....so probably, a pure Boxer should have much more problems, but I'm pretty sure this Boxing Instructor is MMA.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2018
  9. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    890
    Likes Received:
    259
    Trophy Points:
    78
    Location:
    New Mexico
    The psychological dynamics of dealing with strikes in sparring is different than grappling for it's less controlled. Most people will have an initial fear of getting hit and will hesitate to initiate or commit to techniques because of said fear. The boxer was showing restraint, but was giving the students enough to challenge them. The blue belt got his hands on the boxer a few times but didn't follow through.

    The boxer had good footwork and knew how to control distance. Those skills alone makes all the difference. I'm not making excuses for the bjj students, but I think this type of training is a step in the right direction.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,550
    Likes Received:
    4,532
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Man seriously. You tried this on my boxing instructor you wouldn't be taking him down either.

    There is a reason why these guys are teaching the class.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Thing is that Bjj has traditionally trained students on how to grapple with strikers, it's part of what made Royce Gracie capable of winning the early UFCs, and is part of the reason Bjj became a staple of MMA. There is no puzzle here, we're just simply dealing with lost knowledge in some Bjj schools that focus on competition over practical application of the martial art. Again, in my old school, we were taught how to grapple against strikers in our fundamental classes when you were a zero stripe white belt.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    905
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Not all strikers are created equal. If bjj guys could just automatically take down any striker with ease(even at BB level) mma would be full of jitz guys that can't strike because they wouldn't need to.

    But it isn't.
     
  13. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Mainly because BJJ takes a very long time (in MMA terms) to reach that level of proficiency. Most MMA fighters utilize wrestling for their base and add BJJ as a compliment to their existing grappling skills. However, we do have very recent examples of BJJ practcioners who have done very well in MMA. Ryan Hall, Kron Gracie, Vinny Marghelies (sp?) and McKenzie Dern just to name a few. I think a few of them are undefeated as well.
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I should also add that old school Bjj was never devoid of strikes. Striking was employed in old school BJJ to set up and reinforce grappling. You can see that in the Gracie in action vids and the first UFC.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    905
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I roll twice a week, I understand bjj is a powerful tool. I also understand there are vast areas of fighting bjj doesn't extensively train. This is especially true if you train only bjj and literally never face real strikes from good strikers.

    Sure, there are and have been bjj specialists in high level MMA, but even Ryan Hall and "the human backpack" Demian Maia have way better boxing than your average Joe.
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Well let's be real here; If I'm a Bjj hobbyist who rolls twice a week and I get in a fight with a professional boxer, I'm more than likely going to kiss the pavement. If I'm dealing with some street fighting guy who goes to a boxing gym twice a week, then (if I'm going to an old-school Bjj school) I should be able to use my training to stuff his strikes via clench, take him down, ground and pound and (if necessary) go to choke and joint lock. The point is, your BJJ school should be teaching you how to use and deal with striking. Unfortunately, more and more schools think it's more important to learn how to counter a guard than a punch.

    Yeah, but I wouldn't consider Maia or Hall to be top level strikers in the sport. Both are employing the old school Bjj strategy of using strikes to set up the grappling, and they (along with the others I mentioned) have been very successful in that arena while having mediocre striking. Heck Kron is bringing back the heel kick while in guard. Again, that's classic Bjj.
     
  17. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    3,022
    Likes Received:
    905
    Trophy Points:
    213
    I get that. Many sport schools don't deal with striking at all, some are more heavily SD oriented and drill a lot of strike defenses. Not many that I know of do enough striking to hang with an actual striker though..and if that guy has some takedown defense any guy that's bjj only could be in for a really bad time.


    No, they aren't top level..but they both have a boxing coach. Just saying you can't really use any MMA guy as an example of pure jitz, unless you go back to Royce.
     
  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,584
    Likes Received:
    2,156
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    What are the BJJ strategy to deal with

    1. incoming punches - your opponent's hands are away from his head,
    2. boxing guard - your opponent's hands are near his head?
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages:
    5,177
    Likes Received:
    740
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Well there's Kron. At Ieast he claims to be doing nothing but Gjj.
     
  20. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,546
    Likes Received:
    4,030
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    The primary tool in old-school BJJ for dealing with punches has always been distance control.

    If you are too far away to clinch, then stay far away out of punching range (about 2 arms length). Low kicks to the knee are used to discourage the opponent from getting close.

    If the opponent commits to rushing you, that is your chance to move forward at the same time. Since you are both moving forward you can reach clinch range quickly without worrying about him backing away. The "rhino guard", as you call it, is a classic method for protecting the head on the way in.

    Once you are in, stay very close to smother punches and get the takedown.

    Another classic option if you need to press the attack against an opponent who isn't committing forward is to use the "pisao", a low kick which turns into a big step forward in order to get close. (I believe you've spoken in favor of this technique in previous conversations.)

    Another approach is to time an opponent's punch and change levels to come in with a double-leg takedown. This is a good technique but requires significant skill to do properly.

    Note - the old school BJJ approaches I've just described are pretty reliable against untrained opponents and pure strikers. Modern MMA competition, where you are dealing with opponents who are skilled in blending striking and grappling, requires more sophisticated methods to reach the clinch without being hit. Generally speaking, if you are fighting someone who is skilled in both striking and grappling then you need to have both striking and grappling skills yourself.123
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1

Share This Page