A sad state of affairs...

Discussion in 'Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling' started by Hanzou, Sep 21, 2018.

  1. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    My point was that if the training is off, then it doesn't matter how much athleticism you have, you're not beating a professional fighter.
     
  2. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    That's interesting how a bit of understanding in striking arts helped your grappling.

    Weren't you one of the proponents of "striking works against strikers but grappling works against grapplers and strikers" or something along those lines?

    If that were actually true and you didn't need to understand striking to beat a striker using grappling, that boxer (who really didn't look like he was putting in much effort at all) should have been down many times.
     
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  3. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Reality is.....the more skilled fighter usually wins.

    Lower skill level grapplers are gonna struggle against higher skilled strikers and vice versa.

    When it’s equally skilled opponents then individual advantages (speed, strength, power, toughness, etc...) often time becomes the difference maker.

    That’s the reason Rickson Gracie was so great....most times he was the most skilled in the match.
     
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  4. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    And vice versa.

    And I stand by that statement. Obviously if you have the opportunity to learn both, you should do that. However, if you can only learn one, grappling will give you more bang for your buck.

    The problem is that those Bjj practitioners aren't learning proper takedowns for whatever reason. You should be taught how to close distance, how to clench, and how to take someone down in your first week or two of Bjj, and none of that was on display. At the very least, you should be taught how to do a proper shot.

    That lack of takedown skill makes sense if the only thing you're doing is learning is how to deal with someone else who is trying to take you down as well. As I said, that's a sad state of affairs. What I saw in that video isn't the Bjj I was trained in.
     
  5. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This is the drawback of bjj competition, that other TMAs often have. If you spend all your time sparring/rolling with someone who has the same style as you, you never learn how to handle people with different styles. Not every BJJ school does that, but a lot do, just like how not every (pick your TMA style) does that, but a lot do.
     
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  6. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Learning the basic principles of closing the gap is one thing. Developing the skill and confidence to do it against a skilled boxer who is using jabs and good footwork is another. Not many people get that in their first week.

    Which is why I wish more BJJ schools devoted more time towards helping students develop that skill. I have nothing against the sport side of BJJ. I just don’t want to see it lead to abandonment of the martial art.
     
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  7. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Tony, what is your view on white belts learning to roll from their knees? Do you think they would be better off rolling from standing position in order to better develop takedown skill? Just curious.
     
  8. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    The difference in Bjj is that the rolling/sparring is still invaluable despite the person you're sparring with being from the same style. Having varying types of people on top of you or trying to impose their will upon you is a very important aspect of fighting. Additionally, being able to recover when someone is taking YOU down is also very important.
     
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  9. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh, I absolutely agree with that. But, it also means that if you go to one of those insulated schools, that you need to do some sort of cross-training, to make those skills more practical.
     
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  10. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that wrestling from the knees is one of the most counterproductive aspects of BJJ training. If you’re going to start on the ground, then start from a realistic position that might result from a takedown (typically with one person on top).

    One of my preferred drills for ground work is to begin with one partner executing an unresisted takedown. Once the other person hits the mat, then the exercise goes live. The person who was taken down works to sweep, submit, or stand up. The person who did the takedown tries to stay on top, hold their opponent down, and submit them.
     
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  11. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Doesn't working from the knees allow it to start off neutral though, so that you have a chance to get dominant position? To me it makes sense to have times both when you're working from a position vs. competing for positions.
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you play 100% defense, when your opponent attacks you, you just keep moving back, or moving sideway, it will be very difficult for your opponent to obtain a clinch on you. You have to move in when your opponent moves in, or you have to move in faster than your opponent's retreat.

    In order to establish a successful clinch, your hands have to be closer to your opponent's body. If you use your hands to guard your own head, your hand will be too far away from your opponent's body. This is why the "rhino guard" is invented to solve this problem.

    The "rhino guard" can

    - guard your own head, and
    - keep your hands closer to your opponent's body.

     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The problem is that working from your knees teaches you to fight for dominant position in an unrealistic and unproductive manner. If you and your opponent are both on your knees, the correct way to get to a dominant position is to stand up. Time spent doing crappy pseudo-wrestling from your knees is time you could spend either working on takedowns or practicing groundwork from the positions that you will realistically be in after a takedown.
     
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  14. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In the video, the boxer isn't playing 100% defense. He's attacking with jabs, then retreating just enough to stuff the jiu-jiteiros crappy entries while still throwing punches. Their entries are crappy because they don't understand the proper timing or distancing and they are intimidated by the punches.

    I'm not worried about being able to clinch (or strike) someone who is just running away from me. I want to be able to clinch someone who is trying to hurt me.
     
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  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    What's the best way to deal with the head punch? It may be the most important question in the MA.

    So the issue is you will need to protect your head well enough when you move in. I have spend years and years trying to solve this issue. This is why I came up:

    1. Rhino guard,
    2. Chinese zombie guard.
    3. Double spears guard,
    4. Octopus guard.

    I would love to hear other good solutions on this problem.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  16. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Most people probably wouldn't take down our boxing instructor either.

    There are ways to strike that make take downs hard.
     
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  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The boxer has T-shirt on. If your right hand can slide down from his neck, and use your 4 fingers to grab on his shirt (under neck) from inside while your thumb is on the outside, you can pull yourself into him and establish a clinch.

    Again, your hand has to be closer to his head.

     
  18. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Gasp....the almighty unbeatable Bjj lost to a striker....wow never thought could ever happen....
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I think BJJ guys also need to train the striking skill too. You can use

    - uppercut to establish a head lock, or over hook.
    - hook punch to establish an under hook.
    - back fist to establish an arm control.
    - ...

    By using striking, it can help you to obtain the clinch that you are looking for.

    Here is an example that hook punches are used to establish under hook.

     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you don't train how to use your BJJ skill to deal with a boxer, your BJJ skill is not fully tested. This is true for all MA systems. If you just test your skill in your own style, you will never be able to find out your style weakness.

    MMA is the best environment for testing.
     
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